The Problem with Mark Ingram (4 Viewers)

[oldJC.SAINTS]

It had been a long time since we haven't debate Ingram. But at the same time there is no Robinson or Ivory or PT in the backfield anymore. Cant'wait for that NON-debate to show up again if Lasco ever break a 50 yds run....

Ingram is the starter, end of story.

 

[Hey BAY BAY!!!]

It had been a long time since we haven't debate Ingram. But at the same time there is no Robinson or Ivory or PT in the backfield anymore. Cant'wait for that NON-debate to show up again if Lasco ever break a 50 yds run....

Ingram is the starter, end of story.

Of course he is. No other competition but Kuhn.

 

[superchuck500]

I like Ingram and I have always wanted him to have success just because he's our running back and we used a first-round pick on him. I never understand why some fans seem to root against a guy even if it hurts the team. And I'll never understand why it would ever matter where a guy on your own team that you live and die for happened to play his college ball.

That said, I don't think Ingram is running as violently as he did the previous two or three seasons. When Ingram was getting 100-yard games, he was hitting holes hard and running violently. Not many backs can actually run like that regularly, but the ones that do are usually successful. I'm sure it's hard on the body and mind to keep up that kind of physicality in playing football, so I'm not calling the guy out on it or anything at this point. Just an observation.

 

[football]

Can't believe there are so much hate for Ingram,. The man has been solid. Though the numbers don't show it but he does what is ask of him. This offense will never allow a single rusher to have big numbers in the running game. The only thing I don't like about Ingram is his emotion can gets the best of him sometimes.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

What I can't understand is how threads like this get assumed as Hate when they are just observations.

I don't hate the guy...but his limitations as a RB are clear. How many times did he get tripped up and just couldn't make that last guy miss. How many times have you seen him get up...pat the ball like "this close"

That happens a lot with Ingram...so again you have to kind of build around those limitations.


I hate that this thread is titled "The Problem". It's not really a problem....every player on every team has limitations. Heck...to make my point clear...Chuck had to say "not hating or calling him out" just to make his observation not come off as bashing him...because any observation that points out his limitations gets misconstrued as bashing and thats unfair to the posters who just say what needs to be said.


I'm going to get lit up in the cooks thread because it will come off as bashing him...but hey is what it is. I like all of the players and I'm loyal to all of them as it pertains to their tenure with the team. Yet I like to look at things from a particular view and I have no problem saying "hey this is a weak part of this guys game" and if we are paying him to do this....and his limitations are this...we should be looking at is that worth it. The best teams make the best decisions and the Steelers aren't any less of an offensive juggernaut after letting Mike Wallace walk in what could be viewed as a similar situation. Not to fast forward here but just something I'm keeping a keen eye on in the years to come and the decisions that will have to be made.


Say what you want about Johnson not looking the same in this offense...Johnson can toat the rock under 20x's and has a higher chance of putting up 100 yards than Ingram ever will on the ground because he can create his own yards...Ingram can not and is a volume runner.

 

[SaintStephen1]

Ingram is a great teammate and good guy. He runs hard but lacks great vision which separates the great ones. That being said, please don't waste a high (1-3) round draft pick on a RB. The OL makes the running game. If anyone thinks Ezekiel Elliot would be doing what he"s doing behind the Saints' line, they are crazy. Use high draft picks on front 7 and OL.

 

[Brennan77]

I'd understand the complaint if we had ever had one running back in the Sean Payton era actually consistently produce running yards in a big way. It's just not part of the system or the philosophy. We did well on occasional years, but in those years, so did all of the running backs. The one exception was 2006 with Deuce, with an oline that Payton inherited. And things quickly changed thereafter.

My point is that within the context of a Sean Payton offense, Mark Ingram does exactly what he is asked to do and he does it consistently. He's probably the best in the league with ball security, is a very reliable receiver, is an excellent pass blocker and routinely breaks multiple tackles in the backfield to at least not lose yards. Additionally, he is by all accounts a great teammate as well. I don't think he's a particularly unique or special player. But he's absolutely part of the solution and we should be glad to have him on the Saints.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I'd understand the complaint if we had ever had one running back in the Sean Payton era actually consistently produce running yards in a big way. It's just not part of the system or the philosophy. We did well on occasional years, but in those years, so did all of the running backs. The one exception was 2006 with Deuce, with an oline that Payton inherited. And things quickly changed thereafter.

My point is that within the context of a Sean Payton offense, Mark Ingram does exactly what he is asked to do and he does it consistently. He's probably the best in the league with ball security, is a very reliable receiver, is an excellent pass blocker and routinely breaks multiple tackles in the backfield to at least not lose yards. Additionally, he is by all accounts a great teammate as well. I don't think he's a particularly unique or special player. But he's absolutely part of the solution and we should be glad to have him on the Saints.

Kinda answered the main question.

The only RB to do it was Deuce who was a "special back" AND split time/touches with Reggie. The whole RB's can't get into a rhythm because of the SP system and how they are used is hogwash. Its possible but it requires a special back.

You move up to draft Ingram in the 1st because you think he'll be that RB and unfortunately he hasn't turned out to be that guy. Thats just facts but to pretend it could not be done by say a David Johnson or Leveon Bell is just a cop out and a defense mechanism that is long over used.

If Ivory was capable of Pass Blocking/being available he could have easily turned out 1k Seasons in this offense because he was a special runner. Its not only about making guys miss in the back field its about making more guys miss after that and being able to do something.

I'll leave it at this..I'm happy with the guy i have no problems with him but the constant (not enough carries)defenses and bashing of anyone that says anything remotely true is getting old. Sure the OP could have titled his thread differently but he didn't say anything that was out of bounds.


As long as Drew is QB this will never be a run first team where the RB gets 20-25 touches a game. Why would you want it to be? Or...at least until we fix the defense. When we can close out teams early and get a commanding lead(people were worrying why SP didn't just run the ball after going up 21...its because Duh we weren't stopping them and we don't have that kind of defense so he kept trying to score because we obviously needed that many points to win) with a stout defense then we can hand the ball off to Ingram 10-12 plus x's to close out game because we know our D won't turn around and give up 7-14 points in back to back series after trying to ice the game.

Perhaps its a fine line with Ingram and thats what Sean sees in him. Maybe in another year we'll really see Ingram shine or even late in the season as we get defenders back and the D starts to play tighter(if they can play tighter)

Thats the only defense I can legit use......we can't stop people from scoring so we can't give him the rock late in games because we have to keep throwing.

Fair Trade.

 

[kcirdor]

We ran the ball fine until Peat got hurt Sunday.

 

[jarrod74]

The problem is our defense not Ingram if our D was better mark would get more carrys

 

[kcirdor]

If Ivory was capable of Pass Blocking/being available he could have easily turned out 1k Seasons in this offense because he was a special runner. Its not only about making guys miss in the back field its about making more guys miss after that and being able to do something.

Besides the obvious all around player that Ingram is... key stat, Ingram in 67 games and 939 touches, 3 Fumbles. Ivory in 73 games and 970 touches, 12 fumbles. Second key stat.. in 48 games with the saints Ivory played in 24. NO more Ivory comparisons.

 

[Trey W.]

I know Sean loves to rotate guys out, but with a David Johnson type back you don't have to. Johnson is built like deuce with better speed and maybe better hands. They showed clips of him catching swing passes, making people miss, and blowing past them. Things MI just can not do. Drafting Fournette would be awesome, but don't see it happening. Actually I would prefer McCaffery or Guice next year. These are guys that can do it all and would fit in Sean's scheme perfectly

 

[BreesusSaves]

Ingram: 3.9ypc.
Hightower: 3.4ypc.
Lasco: 2.8ypc.

Right now the games are track meets and the Saints offensive line has not been good run blocking. That's just how it is, and that's a horrible combination for any running back and the numbers reflect that. This team needs Armstead back at 100%, and hopefully Peat's injury isn't too serious. That will give them a much more realistic chance to at least win at the line of scrimmage so when a run is called it can have some success.

 

[Meachemdat]

Kinda answered the main question.

The only RB to do it was Deuce who was a "special back" AND split time/touches with Reggie. The whole RB's can't get into a rhythm because of the SP system and how they are used is hogwash. Its possible but it requires a special back.

You move up to draft Ingram in the 1st because you think he'll be that RB and unfortunately he hasn't turned out to be that guy. Thats just facts but to pretend it could not be done by say a David Johnson or Leveon Bell is just a cop out and a defense mechanism that is long over used.

If Ivory was capable of Pass Blocking/being available he could have easily turned out 1k Seasons in this offense because he was a special runner. Its not only about making guys miss in the back field its about making more guys miss after that and being able to do something.

I'll leave it at this..I'm happy with the guy i have no problems with him but the constant (not enough carries)defenses and bashing of anyone that says anything remotely true is getting old. Sure the OP could have titled his thread differently but he didn't say anything that was out of bounds.


As long as Drew is QB this will never be a run first team where the RB gets 20-25 touches a game. Why would you want it to be? Or...at least until we fix the defense. When we can close out teams early and get a commanding lead(people were worrying why SP didn't just run the ball after going up 21...its because Duh we weren't stopping them and we don't have that kind of defense so he kept trying to score because we obviously needed that many points to win) with a stout defense then we can hand the ball off to Ingram 10-12 plus x's to close out game because we know our D won't turn around and give up 7-14 points in back to back series after trying to ice the game.

Perhaps its a fine line with Ingram and thats what Sean sees in him. Maybe in another year we'll really see Ingram shine or even late in the season as we get defenders back and the D starts to play tighter(if they can play tighter)

Thats the only defense I can legit use......we can't stop people from scoring so we can't give him the rock late in games because we have to keep throwing.

Fair Trade.

This is pretty much what I was talking about.
Ingram put up 100 yard games in 14' he's completely capable of putting up great numbers when we dedicate ourselves to the run, the problem with that is you have to have a defense to compliment it.

After the 2013 season we really changed our philosophy on offense especially with Drew's injury going into the 2014 season, we became more a balanced offense and put up good rushing numbers, the problem is our defense couldn't protect a lead.

Now Sean has gone back to a 2007-2011 approach of having an aggressive, bend-don't break, defense with a pass-happy offense. Once the defense comes into their own we have the potential of recreating a 2011 type season.

2009 was the perfect storm of everything executing perfectly and we had a great run game, even with it being split between 3 backs.

 

[StudioSaint]

The only RB to do it was Deuce who was a "special back" AND split time/touches with Reggie. The whole RB's can't get into a rhythm because of the SP system and how they are used is hogwash. Its possible but it requires a special back.

Ingram's YPC in 2013 through 2015 was equal to or higher than Deuce's YPC from 2006-2008. Don't know how you can objectively conclude that Duece was a "special back" and Ingram is not.

There's something about the way Ingram runs that makes people think he's less successful than other backs, but his YPC says otherwise. It seems his running style doesn't get him many style points. Fortunately, style points don't matter.