The ridiculous violence in N.O. (3 Viewers)

[Dre]

excellent post.. a lot of truth in there.

I don't know. Is it the break down of society or the breakdown of the family?

 

[drob8785]

It is worse. Used to there were safe areas of town where things didn't happen. No more. The violence has spilled into just about every part of the city.

It's the randomness of it that is disconcerting.

This isn't the first time this claim has been made in this thread.

And I'm going to call BS on it.

It's a claim that makes two assumptions: First that the location of the violence has shifted, and second that the victim profile has changed.

There is little evidence for both.

One of the few web features that NOLA.com does a good job on is the map of the Murders in the city. It's worth a look: New Orleans Murders - NOLA.com
Obviously all murders are violence, but not all of the violence are murders. But Murders are the "ultimate" violence, and at the very less give us a good place to start.

So let's look at the first claim, that the location of the violence has shifted. It's clear that there are murder "hot spots" -- Hollygrove, Central City, Treme/Esplanade Ridge, St Roch/7th Ward/St Claude, and New Orleans East. Ask any New Orleanian what the "dangerous" neighborhoods are, and you'll probably get a list similar to that. Also, the map shows that the middle and upper class neighborhoods of Uptown/University, Lakeview, and Gentilly have only a fraction of the murders of the other neighborhoods.

Additionally Orleans Parish has always been a community where only blocks separate crack houses from mansions. This hasn't changed -- it's just as the murder rate goes up, people have more opportunity to say "Oh my God, that happened around the corner."

So with that first claim debunked, let's move onto the second claim, that the violence and the victims are "different."

The map gives the victims sex, race, and age. Murder victims in this city are OVERWHELMINGLY male, black, and 18-40 years old. No other demographic comes even close. And while the map doesn't give their occupation, the vast majority of the dead are involved, in one way or another in drugs and/or gangs.

My point ultimately is that details of murders in our city, as sad as it is, can essentially be predicted. It is not, as some people are claiming, random and spreading. The murder rate in New Orleans is embarrassing and horrific, please don't get me wrong. But we can do without the fear mongering -- it's scary enough already.

I grew up in the heart of safe, white Jefferson Parish. It was a good place to spend a childhood. And I was afraid of Orleans, with vivid memories of watching the news during the height of the murders in the 90s.

But when I moved into the city, I realized that it wasn't a dangerous place to live. Oh sure it requires a different set of "street smarts" than living in the suburbs, and non-criminals sometimes get mugged. But it's not a warzone out there -- at least not for you and me. It might be for a 19 year old slinging on the corner of Villere and St Bernard, but not for us.

When I lived in New Orleans I lived in a lot of the "border" neighborhoods -- the edge between Central City and Uptown, the Lower Garden District and St Thomas, the nice part of MidCity and the bad part of MidCity. Because of this I took precautions. I made sure my driveway/doorway was well lit, I got to know my neighbors, I avoided walking down dark streets drunk at 3am, etc. And never once was I ever a victim of crime -- although my roommates bike was jacked once (she got it back from the guy who sells used bikes on Magazine near le bon temps).

And I never, ever, let it stop me from walking into Central City for a hot sausage with cheese poboy, hot fries, and a bottle of Big Shot.

 

[Mr. Blue Sky]

This isn't the first time this claim has been made in this thread.

And I'm going to call BS on it.

It's a claim that makes two assumptions: First that the location of the violence has shifted, and second that the victim profile has changed.

There is little evidence for both.

One of the few web features that NOLA.com does a good job on is the map of the Murders in the city. It's worth a look: New Orleans Murders - NOLA.com
Obviously all murders are violence, but not all of the violence are murders. But Murders are the "ultimate" violence, and at the very less give us a good place to start.

So let's look at the first claim, that the location of the violence has shifted. It's clear that there are murder "hot spots" -- Hollygrove, Central City, Treme/Esplanade Ridge, St Roch/7th Ward/St Claude, and New Orleans East. Ask any New Orleanian what the "dangerous" neighborhoods are, and you'll probably get a list similar to that. Also, the map shows that the middle and upper class neighborhoods of Uptown/University, Lakeview, and Gentilly have only a fraction of the murders of the other neighborhoods.

Additionally Orleans Parish has always been a community where only blocks separate crack houses from mansions. This hasn't changed -- it's just as the murder rate goes up, people have more opportunity to say "Oh my God, that happened around the corner."

So with that first claim debunked, let's move onto the second claim, that the violence and the victims are "different."

The map gives the victims sex, race, and age. Murder victims in this city are OVERWHELMINGLY male, black, and 18-40 years old. No other demographic comes even close. And while the map doesn't give their occupation, the vast majority of the dead are involved, in one way or another in drugs and/or gangs.

My point ultimately is that details of murders in our city, as sad as it is, can essentially be predicted. It is not, as some people are claiming, random and spreading. The murder rate in New Orleans is embarrassing and horrific, please don't get me wrong. But we can do without the fear mongering -- it's scary enough already.

I grew up in the heart of safe, white Jefferson Parish. It was a good place to spend a childhood. And I was afraid of Orleans, with vivid memories of watching the news during the height of the murders in the 90s.

But when I moved into the city, I realized that it wasn't a dangerous place to live. Oh sure it requires a different set of "street smarts" than living in the suburbs, and non-criminals sometimes get mugged. But it's not a warzone out there -- at least not for you and me. It might be for a 19 year old slinging on the corner of Villere and St Bernard, but not for us.

When I lived in New Orleans I lived in a lot of the "border" neighborhoods -- the edge between Central City and Uptown, the Lower Garden District and St Thomas, the nice part of MidCity and the bad part of MidCity. Because of this I took precautions. I made sure my driveway/doorway was well lit, I got to know my neighbors, I avoided walking down dark streets drunk at 3am, etc. And never once was I ever a victim of crime -- although my roommates bike was jacked once (she got it back from the guy who sells used bikes on Magazine near le bon temps).

And I never, ever, let it stop me from walking into Central City for a hot sausage with cheese poboy, hot fries, and a bottle of Big Shot.

another interesting perspective.. and to answer Dre's question: I'm not sure which is more accurate, i suppose the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[SpinalTarp]

The map gives the victims sex, race, and age. Murder victims in this city are OVERWHELMINGLY male, black, and 18-40 years old. No other demographic comes even close. And while the map doesn't give their occupation, the vast majority of the dead are involved, in one way or another in drugs and/or gangs.

This and the victim and perpetrator usually know each other before the crime is committed. There are a lot of comments here and on nola.com with people saying either they want to leave the city or they are glad they left. While crime is a major concern for any citizen, I'd be willing to bet that 99% of these posters are not 18-40 black males involved in drugs/turf wars/gangs who live in the city's most destitue neighborhoods. It's very disconcerting to see law abiding citizens who have no connections to the crime scene in New Orleans use it as an excuse to abandon the city.

 

[bornnraisedwhodat]

The rise in violence is a natural consequence of the selfish me-first culture that has infected the whole of Anglo-American society since Thatcher, Reagan and Friedman rose to prominence and put an end to the concept of society - replacing it with the cult of individual success.

We worship celebrities, billionaires, money, personal success, personal fulfilment, individual freedom (which is largely a sham choice of what stupid saying you want emblazened on your Nikes), and have progressively turned our backs on any form of cooperative, collective endeavour, because it smacks of Socialism.

We are fascinated by TV shows that reveal the fabulous lives of spoiled crib-obsessed 'celebs' and showcase the outrageous wealth and privilege of corporate bullies, we do the lottery not to change the lives of our fellow man but to join the elite club ourselves.

Rampant inequality and social injustice permeate every layer of society and yet the downtrodden prefer to prey on each other for a quick hit than to reject selfishness and work together to create a caring, supportive alternative society.

In an internet age it doesn't cost a fortune to set up people's universities, home-study groups and libraries. We could share our unwanted possessions, use churches as creches and schools, recruit reformed drug addicts and gang bangers and pay them to work in the community - giving them an honest source of income and a chance to stop the next-generation falling prey to the same cycle of alienation and violence.

Whoah.

I dont even know where to start...lets see.

The rise in violence is a natural consequence of the selfish me-first culture that has infected the whole of Anglo-American society since Thatcher, Reagan and Friedman rose to prominence and put an end to the concept of society - replacing it with the cult of individual success.

So, in your view, prior to the Mid 70's, early 80's, America was a collective society based on shared wealth and property? Seriously? America, in it's founding and the way it's been for most of it's existence has been the epitome of individual liberty, freedom, and given people the ability to pursue their happieness and wealth. Im not fan of Reagan or Thratcher, both were war-mongers and crony capitalist IMO, and Reagan oversaw one of the most damaging eras of drug proliferation in history, but to say it started with them is absurd. Friedman? The Fed Chairman? I know he is the boogie man to most liberals and socialist but how can he be blamed for inner city violence?

We worship celebrities, billionaires, money, personal success, personal fulfilment, individual freedom (which is largely a sham choice of what stupid saying you want emblazened on your Nikes), and have progressively turned our backs on any form of cooperative, collective endeavour, because it smacks of Socialism.

Personal success, freedom, fulfilment is a bad thing? Call me crazy

And you can still have forms of collectivism towards a common goal, but still have a society based on individual freedoms. America, from it's founding onto about 1970 is proof of that. People worked together to further their own self interests, while at the same time advancing the collective interests. Sorry to break it to you bit it works while socialism has completely failed.

We are fascinated by TV shows that reveal the fabulous lives of spoiled crib-obsessed 'celebs' and showcase the outrageous wealth and privilege of corporate bullies, we do the lottery not to change the lives of our fellow man but to join the elite club ourselves.

Cant argue with ya there.

Rampant inequality and social injustice permeate every layer of society and yet the downtrodden prefer to prey on each other for a quick hit than to reject selfishness and work together to create a caring, supportive alternative society.

Cant argue much here either other than you should look at the root of the cause of the further widening inequality in society. There will never be a equal society, ever, but the coroporatist and crony capitalist have a strong hold on the wealth in this country with the power of force (govt). You try to start an alternative society you will be exterminated, not because we are too free, but because we are not free.

In an internet age it doesn't cost a fortune to set up people's universities, home-study groups and libraries. We could share our unwanted possessions, use churches as creches and schools, recruit reformed drug addicts and gang bangers and pay them to work in the community - giving them an honest source of income and a chance to stop the next-generation falling prey to the same cycle of alienation and violence

Sounds like a great idea, seriously, and Im sure there are many out there doing this exact same thing. Khan University comes to mind, as a great great free online education. But at the end of the day its up to people to want to do it.

 

[jrdbrn]

I am mixed on a solution, but I think the death penalty needs to be implemented heavily on murders. I think they need to have different levels, but if there is 100% evidence that you did it, you will just be put to sleep. It doesn't have to be expensive either.

What fear do they have? If they're a kid, they will go to juvenile and get out. Adults just go to jail.

 

[bornnraisedwhodat]

This isn't the first time this claim has been made in this thread.

And I'm going to call BS on it.

It's a claim that makes two assumptions: First that the location of the violence has shifted, and second that the victim profile has changed.

There is little evidence for both.

One of the few web features that NOLA.com does a good job on is the map of the Murders in the city. It's worth a look: New Orleans Murders - NOLA.com
Obviously all murders are violence, but not all of the violence are murders. But Murders are the "ultimate" violence, and at the very less give us a good place to start.

So let's look at the first claim, that the location of the violence has shifted. It's clear that there are murder "hot spots" -- Hollygrove, Central City, Treme/Esplanade Ridge, St Roch/7th Ward/St Claude, and New Orleans East. Ask any New Orleanian what the "dangerous" neighborhoods are, and you'll probably get a list similar to that. Also, the map shows that the middle and upper class neighborhoods of Uptown/University, Lakeview, and Gentilly have only a fraction of the murders of the other neighborhoods.

Additionally Orleans Parish has always been a community where only blocks separate crack houses from mansions. This hasn't changed -- it's just as the murder rate goes up, people have more opportunity to say "Oh my God, that happened around the corner."

So with that first claim debunked, let's move onto the second claim, that the violence and the victims are "different."

The map gives the victims sex, race, and age. Murder victims in this city are OVERWHELMINGLY male, black, and 18-40 years old. No other demographic comes even close. And while the map doesn't give their occupation, the vast majority of the dead are involved, in one way or another in drugs and/or gangs.

My point ultimately is that details of murders in our city, as sad as it is, can essentially be predicted. It is not, as some people are claiming, random and spreading. The murder rate in New Orleans is embarrassing and horrific, please don't get me wrong. But we can do without the fear mongering -- it's scary enough already.

I grew up in the heart of safe, white Jefferson Parish. It was a good place to spend a childhood. And I was afraid of Orleans, with vivid memories of watching the news during the height of the murders in the 90s.

But when I moved into the city, I realized that it wasn't a dangerous place to live. Oh sure it requires a different set of "street smarts" than living in the suburbs, and non-criminals sometimes get mugged. But it's not a warzone out there -- at least not for you and me. It might be for a 19 year old slinging on the corner of Villere and St Bernard, but not for us.

When I lived in New Orleans I lived in a lot of the "border" neighborhoods -- the edge between Central City and Uptown, the Lower Garden District and St Thomas, the nice part of MidCity and the bad part of MidCity. Because of this I took precautions. I made sure my driveway/doorway was well lit, I got to know my neighbors, I avoided walking down dark streets drunk at 3am, etc. And never once was I ever a victim of crime -- although my roommates bike was jacked once (she got it back from the guy who sells used bikes on Magazine near le bon temps).

And I never, ever, let it stop me from walking into Central City for a hot sausage with cheese poboy, hot fries, and a bottle of Big Shot.

Great post bro, now you got me wanting a Hot Sausage po boy

 

[RazorOye]

What fear do they have? If they're a kid, they will go to juvenile and get out.

what do you mean by this?

Do you not think kids get adjudicated as adults? Do you not think there exists sentencing procedures (at least in Louisiana) that can sentence a juvenile to something more than a requisite release based on his age (one of the kids i worked with had precisely this sentence given to him - and the charge wasn't one in which someone ended up dead)?

I'm curious what your point is in the first place and, secondly, what that point is based on.

 

[FWtex]

The problem and the cure is actually very simple to figure out but the vocal minority in regards to maintaining our constitutional rights are sending society down this corrupt path. It seems that at every turn now there is a parent, a lawyer, a judge, or a politician ready to step on the law abiding citizens constitutional rights for the sake of the criminals constitutional rights.

The problem does not start at the top, the bottom, or in the middle. Repeat criminal parents need to removed from their children so the children do not follow their poor examples. The legal systme needs to enforce the laws with no leniency, no excuses. The politicians need to protect the legal system that protects the law abiding citizens and let the criminals learn the ways of their errors.

Schools and teachers need to be returned to an avenue for learning instead of a day care center for the parents. School should be viewed as a priveledge for the parents and a right for the children. If the parents don't want to enforce school on the kids then that should be a reason to remove the kid from the home. PERIOD! If the parents can't give tough love to the kids the the state can give tough love to the parents. The children can thank the state when they turn 30, have a job, have kids, and feel safe to walk their neighborhoods and watch their kids play in the front yard.

Drug addicts and dealers should be treated no less than sex offenders and child predators. They should be limited in where they can live and who they can have access to because they are going to prey on the kids at some time or another.

Judges need to be held responsible to uphold the laws. PERIOD! Camera evidence should be able to be used in court and let the jury decide it merits. This will make a criminal thnk twice and look over their shoulder before they decide to take part in a criminal act.

The 5 year old and the 32 year old murdered monday is a prime example of the problem and the lack of adults taking responsibility for creating the mess their kids live in. The famly of the 5 year old was in the drug business and they are wailing and asking why this can happen. Look at yourselves in the mirror and see that you are the reason why this can happen. Remove all the kids from that family for their own protection and let the adults fight the "injustice" of saving those kids lives.

 

[inetnawlins]

We had a murder outside of Mondo in broad daylight in the heart of Lakeview. No that didnt used to happen here. A father and husband was murdered in the Quarter five or six months ago. He happened to be white. He counts. He was a good family guy. Shootouts outside of Chris Owens Club on Bourbon street in a packed crowd on Halloween night with multiple people endangered and shot that had nothing to do with the drug trade.. Shootings on the Uptown route of Mardi Gras Parades. Hispanic man shot sitting on his porch. Shootings near the Bayou Boogaloo event at Bayou St. John.
I live here and have been directly affected by some of this BS. You can call BS all you want, but it is different. The shootings are happening in areas that put people with no connection to the drug trade in danger.

 

[RJ in Lafayette]

If the link does not work, go to Google. But I would suggest reading a lengthy May 2006 article on violence and gangs in New Orleans that appeared in Time magazine. The Gangs of New Orleans - TIME

Let me try to expand a bit on an earlier post with these points:

1. Extreme violence in the city is not new. I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that in the late 1970's the city had an especially large class of individuals who were defined as "career criminals"--a felony arrest as an adult on five different occasions or a felony conviction as an adult on two different occasions. Note that this definition excluded those with lengthy juvenile records. And even then there were large numbers of juveniles who seemed to have no sense of morality and who were capable of committing the most violent crimes.

2. The city has long had a disproportionately large underclass, both in terms of real numbers and percentage of the Orleans Parish population, from which those committing violent crime come. This is NOT to say that most who are poor are violent criminals or criminals. In fact, I use the term "underclass" in both an economic and a cultural sense. But New Orleans has too many young men who are totally fatalistic, who believe they have no future, who place no value on education, and who place a high value on violence, excitement and living in the present--that is, for this very moment. With that mindset, being a drug dealer looks like a good life option.

3. As reflected in the Time magazine article, the city's criminal justice infrastructure is very weak. The New Orleans police department is too small, is not properly trained, and has some history of corruption and brutality. And for several reasons--whether it be the reluctance of witnesses to cooperate, the quality of police investigations, the training and selection of prosecutors, the election of lax judges, and the willingness of jurors to convict--the city's criminal courts do not convict criminal defendants with nearly the same frequency as do courts elsewhere in the state.

And a major factor, I think, is the relative absence of "social capital", which is basically trust in the community. It affects the ability of adjacent governing entities, city council members, neighborhood organizations, jurors, witnesses and judges to trust one another because of shared values and to engage in some level of cooperation. At some point, the importance of the bigger unit has to outweigh that of the tribe. Not so in New Orleans where it is still all about the tribe because only fellow members of the tribe can be trusted.

What can be done? A flippant response is to send in the 82nd Airborne. I have never been a fan of creating making federal crimes conduct that should be handled only by the state authoritites. But I think the federal government needs to get more heavily involved, and I think, much as we have done with terrorists overseas, we need to target these people, a hundred at a time, until the problem is reduced.

 

[bornnraisedwhodat]

Thing is there arent many gangs in N.O., not in the traditional sense.

There is no leader, no organization, just a bunch of young knuckleheads with guns. Wards dont even matter as much as they used to because people a spread all over with the demo of the projects.

 

[inetnawlins]

If the link does not work, go to Google. But I would suggest reading a lengthy May 2006 article on violence and gangs in New Orleans that appeared in Time magazine. The Gangs of New Orleans - TIME

Let me try to expand a bit on an earlier post with these points:

1. Extreme violence in the city is not new. I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that in the late 1970's the city had an especially large class of individuals who were defined as "career criminals"--a felony arrest as an adult on five different occasions or a felony conviction as an adult on two different occasions. Note that this definition excluded those with lengthy juvenile records. And even then there were large numbers of juveniles who seemed to have no sense of morality and who were capable of committing the most violent crimes.

2. The city has long had a disproportionately large underclass both in terms of real numbers and percentage of the Orleans Parish population from which those committing violent crime come. This is NOT to say that most who are poor are violent criminals or criminals. In fact, I use the term "underclass" in both an economic and a cultural sense. But New Orleans has too many young men who are totally fatalistic, who believe they have no future, who place no value on education, and who place a high value on violence, excitement and living in the present. With that mindset, being a drug dealer looks like a good life option.

3. As reflected in the Time magazine article, the city's criminal justice infrastructure is very weak. The New Orleans police department is too small, is not properly trained, and has some history of corruption and brutality. And for several reasons--whether it be the reluctance of witnesses to cooperate, the quality of police investigations, the training and selection of prosecutors, the election of lax judges, and the willingness of jurors to convict--the city's criminal courts do not convict criminal defendants with nearly the same frequency as do courts elsewhere in the state.

A major factor, I think, is the relative absence of "social capital", which is basically trust in the community. It affects the ability of adjacent governing entities, city council members, neighborhood organizations, jurors, witnesses and judges to trust one another because of shared values and to engage in some level of cooperation. At some point, the importance of the bigger unit has to outweigh that of the tribe. Not so in New Orleans where it is still all about the tribe because only fellow members of the tribe can be trusted.

And that year, post Katrina is when violent crime began to spill out into the previously safe areas.

 

[RJ in Lafayette]

The costs of putting someone to death are prohibitive. I think there are rare crimes where the death penalty may be warranted. But capital punishment is not the real answer.

 

[FWtex]

Obviously all murders are violence, but not all of the violence are murders. But Murders are the "ultimate" violence, and at the very less give us a good place to start.


The map gives the victims sex, race, and age. Murder victims in this city are OVERWHELMINGLY male, black, and 18-40 years old. No other demographic comes even close. And while the map doesn't give their occupation, the vast majority of the dead are involved, in one way or another in drugs and/or gangs.

For everyone one murder due to drugs there are multiple numbers of people in those persons lives that are just as involved in the activity and will be the next victim or murderer. This cycle continues to grow for each drug and gang related murder until it eventually takes over the vast majority of the city. These criminals do not operate in a vacuum. Where there is one there are two, then four, then eight, then ....