The undesirable but most likely reality. (9 Viewers)

[sportsaint]

I listened to Underhill’s pod on Saturday and I think the biggest point he made was the one that gets brushed under the rug.

The casual fan want DA to be fired to punish him as the singular scapegoat for all the Saints problems.

I’m in no way endorsing DA, and I I know NO ONE wants to hear what Mickey said (look beyond the results) but I’m looking at it from a business perspective.

It’s not DA’s fault the cap is in shambles (and it is), it’s not DAs fault that his highest priced players are mostly ineffective, aging vets because we are forced to push salary out and only a small part (I’m sure he had input but no real control) of the draft failures are his fault.

What I’m setting up to say is a new coach won’t change much and a good coach won’t take this job.

You have the tear down and clean up before you get to the rebuild. NU pointed out it will take up to 3 years to clean the cap up because we can’t simply cut all the high priced vets, we will have to push money out just to get under the cap, like we do every single season ($80 plus million over next season)

My point is, I’m deducting that they would be fine keeping DA as long as they can to continue the tear down/clean up portion to make this a desirable job before bringing in a top coaching prospect.

I just finished listening to that podcast and it suck’s, but it’s the truth and if the Saints are going to ever attract a honest to goodness awesome coach and staff, the next 3 years are going to be difficult with a bright moment here and there. You’re right, the casual fan has a pitch fork in their hands and wants change now, but that ain’t the way it’s going to go down according to NU. Lord help us

 

[Judge_Smails]

Actually, that’s the norm.
I’ve lost count of how many teams I thought would be terrible forever only to turn it around in one to two years.

That’s what I am saying. It only takes forever when you go full dumb dumb. And not coincidentally it’s usually when an owner, senior exec, GM, and/or HC have too much control and think they know better than what is being proven to work across the league.

It sure looks like Loomis is there.

 

[SystemShock]

I listened to Underhill’s pod on Saturday and I think the biggest point he made was the one that gets brushed under the rug.

The casual fan want DA to be fired to punish him as the singular scapegoat for all the Saints problems.

I’m in no way endorsing DA, and I I know NO ONE wants to hear what Mickey said (look beyond the results) but I’m looking at it from a business perspective.

It’s not DA’s fault the cap is in shambles (and it is), it’s not DAs fault that his highest priced players are mostly ineffective, aging vets because we are forced to push salary out and only a small part (I’m sure he had input but no real control) of the draft failures are his fault.

What I’m setting up to say is a new coach won’t change much and a good coach won’t take this job.

You have the tear down and clean up before you get to the rebuild. NU pointed out it will take up to 3 years to clean the cap up because we can’t simply cut all the high priced vets, we will have to push money out just to get under the cap, like we do every single season ($80 plus million over next season)

My point is, I’m deducting that they would be fine keeping DA as long as they can to continue the tear down/clean up portion to make this a desirable job before bringing in a top coaching prospect.

How do you "tear down" and "clean up" with the same coaching staff?

And what makes you think a good coach won't take the job? There are only 32 such jobs in the world, NFL head coach. And $$$ talks.

I believe "rebuilding" is an old term. These times, teams reload.

 

[SweetT]

This is the NFL: if you aren't improving you are actively getting worse.

Are we improving?

Look beyond the results

Grab the index cards!!!

 

[SystemShock]

That’s what I am saying. It only takes forever when you go full dumb dumb. And not coincidentally it’s usually when an owner, senior exec, GM, and/or HC have too much control and think they know better than what is being proven to work across the league.

It sure looks like Loomis is there.

Just to add to your comment:
There's a term that floats around, "changing the culture"... I don't know if I'd call it "culture", but a change in attitude, approach.. when you are in a rut, you will not get out of the rut by going full dumb dumb doing the same things, you get out of the rut by doing things differently.

 

[Brandon13]

My main concern at this point I think is that Loomis won't admit to himself the failure of it all and that he'll just double down on the idea that this can be salvaged with tinkering rather than committing to an overhaul.

 

[St. Widge]

In today’s NFL, I still think it is possible to turn the Saints fortunes around totally in only a couple of years, but it would mean having a front office and coaching staff in place that know how to build a new culture of success and new roster foundation that is fit to win in today’s NFL.

In contrast Mickey and Dennis Allen are literally just trying to hang on/tread water in hopes of a miracle saving them. That strategy is what results in a permanent rebuild.

I agree that a turnaround is possible in a few years. It's the nature of the NFL and the parity that is built into the draft process and the salary cap. And if Loomis doesn't let DA go this year, he should go too.

But I don't think Loomis is at the root of the problem. He gives his coaches the team they ask for and he does what is financially necessary to give it to them. We are in this cap situation because Payton first and then DA made keeping certain players a priority. Loomis has overseen transitions from losing situations to successful ones before and he's handled the cap in more than one way. I have no reason to believe he can't do it again. And frankly, given that he is the guy that hired Payton and is the guy who signed Brees and built that team around him alongside Payton, he probably deserves more than one bad head coach hire before he gets fired. Loomis has certainly gone too far at this point with the can kicking and trading away draft picks, but he did show a change in philosophy last year so he's not just doing the same old thing. But, it's going to take another 2 years to get the cap closer to normal.

In the meantime, they have to get better at drafting and that largely falls on Ireland and whoever the new head coach is assuming DA is gone. It's always been pretty clear that Loomis takes a back seat in the draft the vast majority of the time letting Ireland and the head coach run it. He only steps in when they can't agree on the pick.

But, I would likely change my mind on Loomis if he gives DA another year.

 

[St. Widge]

My main concern at this point I think is that Loomis won't admit to himself the failure of it all and that he'll just double down on the idea that this can be salvaged with tinkering rather than committing to an overhaul.

He already started the overhaul last year. It's why we didn't spend much money at all in free agency. It's also why we have no depth.

 

[bayoumilitia]

I listened to Underhill’s pod on Saturday and I think the biggest point he made was the one that gets brushed under the rug.

The casual fan want DA to be fired to punish him as the singular scapegoat for all the Saints problems.

I’m in no way endorsing DA, and I I know NO ONE wants to hear what Mickey said (look beyond the results) but I’m looking at it from a business perspective.

It’s not DA’s fault the cap is in shambles (and it is), it’s not DAs fault that his highest priced players are mostly ineffective, aging vets because we are forced to push salary out and only a small part (I’m sure he had input but no real control) of the draft failures are his fault.

What I’m setting up to say is a new coach won’t change much and a good coach won’t take this job.

You have the tear down and clean up before you get to the rebuild. NU pointed out it will take up to 3 years to clean the cap up because we can’t simply cut all the high priced vets, we will have to push money out just to get under the cap, like we do every single season ($80 plus million over next season)

My point is, I’m deducting that they would be fine keeping DA as long as they can to continue the tear down/clean up portion to make this a desirable job before bringing in a top coaching prospect.

Solid points but the cap and injuries aren’t the only thing plaguing the Saints. It’s the lack of a winning culture, pride, effort, energy and execution. Teams often take on the personality of their coach and I think it’s safe to say that DAs approach, demeanor and reaction to the 5 game losing streak says it all. Post game comments like “we all have to do better”, “we did a poor job tackling and we hurt ourselves”, “we will have to look at the tape”, don’t exactly scream urgency. When a head coach talks about cleaning up mistakes and the basics that is a direct reflection of the coaching staff.

As for the cap implications it’s Khai Hartley that’s been the guy bailing us out over the last 7-8 years with dead money and bad contracts that were all put in place by ML or SP.

It’s just my opinion but I think that ML, DL, DA and the majority of the front office and coaching staff needs to go. I’d promote Khai Hartley to GM and let him interview guys like Kubiack or Bieniemy for HC. I would also seriously consider trading guys like Kamara, Lattimore, Demario to teams that are current contenders to get the best value/draft picks for them now. It won’t clear their dead money but it will eventually pay off cap wise in time and help us rebuild through the draft and FA.

I know that might sound insane but it’s just my opinion that we need a similar approach to the post Katrina rebuild. Let Hartley find a younger, innovative offensive minded HC that has an offensive vision that fits with the current NFL rules that are in place that completely favor the offense.

We need our GM and new coach that are on the same page and want to establish a culture of winning, excellence, and pride. We need a HC that has an edge about him, energy, passion, fire and the ability to find, draft, coach and relate to the current generation of players and knows how to get the maximum production out of his players.

Just like SP found his QB and leader we need a new head coach to find his guy, probably through the draft tbh. I know some people thought that DA found his DB in Carr but honestly this current roster wasn’t built to win as DA has suggested. It’s more of an environment, cultural and attitude that needs a reset and rebuild.

Who honestly thinks that our current FO and HC can do that? Does anyone believe that our recent lack of success in the draft and FA are just coincidence or luck? I’m sorry but our scouting, our FA signings and draft picks haven’t exactly matched what we have needed for a while. Yes, we have occasionally hit here or there with some players but tbh we have groomed more players from the past several years and have failed to resign them and watch those players have success with another team then players we have drafted or brought in to make up for the production we lost.

To quote SP, “I’ll say this”, we are not a franchise that is 1 or 2 players away from winning a SB and yes I know that cleaning out the FO, coaching staff and players will not immediately produce results. Even SP and DB took a few years to win a SB.

Anyways Ive rambled enough lol. I’m sure I’ll be bombed for this post but it’s just my opinion

 

[bobad]

This is true but you want the one that has the most proven track record, not the 6th option.

But yea, you’re right when you say you don’t know. It’s like the draft.

IIRC, when Payton left all the HC candidates were 6th choice caliber or lower, and the FA quarterbacks available were barely above backup caliber.

We need to play Haener at least 2 games and see what we have, and if he's not a lot better than Rattler, we may as well start dismantling the team right after the season.

 

[Brandon13]

He already started the overhaul last year. It's why we didn't spend much money at all in free agency. It's also why we have no depth.

I understand.. but I'm concerned I guess that Loomis doesn't have a proper view of DA and this team and that going into next year he'll put in efforts there to pull off a soft landing with the cap stuff where we continue to field "competitive" teams while attempting to slowly get the money back under control. All the while not making the changes we need to make and extending out the time it takes for us to become good again.

Yeah we'll see.. but for sure concerned that Loomis is too attached to DA.

 

[State Of Affairs]

How do you "tear down" and "clean up" with the same coaching staff?

And what makes you think a good coach won't take the job? There are only 32 such jobs in the world, NFL head coach. And $$$ talks.

I believe "rebuilding" is an old term. These times, teams reload.

Somebody will take the job but then everyone will be disappointed cuz they didn’t get one of the top candidates and when he goes 7-10 due to bad bad cap, average QB and several aging vets that you can’t cut because of of accelerated cap hits, everyone will be calling for his head…. So what did you gain?

 

[State Of Affairs]

Yes it is. I mean it stops with Mickey, but Allen was totally onboard with these ridiculous deals.

Which ones? Name the big cap liabilities that DA was in control of.

Now, do say the extending of guys before this season started cuz no one had a choice. They had to get under the cap to field a team.

 

[State Of Affairs]

Payton also takes some of the responsibility.

Hold on… SOME? SOME of the responsibility??? Are we serious here? Payton and Loomis ARE the people who decided to roll contracts chasing one last shot.

I’m not even saying I disagree but this was going on for YEARS and now the guy who created this mess, propitiated the mess then bailed when it was a disaster is only “SOME” responsible???

That is completely unreasonable.

 

[St. Widge]

I understand.. but I'm concerned I guess that Loomis doesn't have a proper view of DA and this team and that going into next year he'll put in efforts there to pull off a soft landing with the cap stuff where we continue to field "competitive" teams while attempting to slowly get the money back under control. All the while not making the changes we need to make and extending out the time it takes for us to become good again.

Yeah we'll see.. but for sure concerned that Loomis is too attached to DA.

I share some concern that Loomis won't fire DA and if he doesn't fire him after this year then Loomis should go too. But, I don't think it's crazy not to fire DA now. No coach is going to take over in the middle of this season and turn things around. So, you might as well let DA lose a bunch of games and get us a better draft pick. Plus, good organizations tend not to fire HCs in the middle of the year and most give a guy 3 years to show if he is the right guy or not. I'm reactionary, I wanted DA gone 2 years ago, but I can see some logic in Loomis thinking he should get the full 3 years. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe he is too attached to DA, but I don't think any of the comments that Loomis made that people are mad at mean he is going to keep him past this year. GMs always say nice things about HCs, right up to the point that they fire them.

But, I do think Loomis has shown that he gets that we need to get the cap under control and get younger. It's shown up in how he has handled free agency and the draft the last couple years. I think the wild card is when Carr became available and I think DA convinced Loomis that he was worth it and was the key piece he needed so he did it. That slowed down the cap reset, but I don't think Loomis has otherwise done a bunch of things to hurt the future cap. He should not have give Cam an extension, but to be fair, Cam was still a pretty good player and a big team leader at the time. He has fallen off a cliff at the end of last year and all of this year. It was also hard to foresee that Ram was going to be suddenly unable to play and have to retire. I think they expected more of a slow decline.