COVID-19 Outbreak (Update: More than 2.9M cases and 132,313 deaths in US) (6 Viewers)

[sfidc3]

It makes you wonder how he formed his erroneous opinion to begin with.

Unfortunately there are way too many morons who share it....

 

[Loose Cannon]

Society will control that as much or more than laws. If it's not socially acceptable to be out without a mask then people will wear masks as an example. How do we get to that point is the big question.

I think normalizing that has been part of the rollout strategy. I'm of the mind that most places didn't just instantly go to full shutdown with masks required in public because that would have been too much at once. It's the whole thing about if you put a frog in boiling water it'll jump out, but if you put him in and slowly warm it up, you'll have cooked frog.

 

[RKNSaint]

Do the numbers mean anything anymore? When I see the 45K dead in the title I just kind of ignore it. Not meaning too, just the way it is. Feeling bad about it I was going to make a visual like a half empty / full Super Dome, etc. Then I found this. Not a direct link but if each piece were a person.

 

[Crzycjunx76]

I thought the U.S. was supposed to be at 200k deaths by now?

Oh we would have left that in the dust by now if we had not shut everything down... easily.

 

[efil4stnias]

Oh we would have left that in the dust by now if we had not shut everything down... easily.

Frontline had a really good piece last night about your neck of the woods.

 

[DadsDream]

About those Small Business Loans, I see the media tripping and falling all over themselves about large businesses getting the loans, etc. Let's see if I can my fellow EE Board buddies a bit.

A Small Business can also be an Other Than Small Business (notice, I did NOT say Large Business, because there is no such thing) under the Small Business Administration rules.
How's that?

The Small Business Administration uses the North American Industry Classification System (NAICS) to determine business size.

There's a NAICS code assigned to every possible type of business and there's a NAICS Size Determination, based on the number of employees and/or the average annual receipts.

So, if a company makes widgets and employs 10,000 people to make widgets, they are an Other Than Small Business for the code assigned to widget makers.

At the same time, the same company has a sideline making shims, but they only employ 10 people doing that. They are a Small Business for the code assigned to shim makers.

I've seen companies that were Small Business for half their NAICS Codes and Other Than Small Business for the other half of their NAICS Codes.

There are also some strange NAICS Codes that can be either Small Business or Other Than Small and their entries contain massive footnotes explaining how the heck that works.

In the end, the deal about "large businesses" getting loans intended for Small Businesses can be extremely misleading, especially given that there is no such thing as a "large business" under the classification system used Small Business Administration and any business can be "Small" or "Other Than Small" simultaneously.

I love my job.

Small Business Association Table of Size Standards

Table of size standards | U.S. Small Business Administration

The table of size standards can also be found online in the small business size regulations set forth in the Electronic Code of Federal Regulations. Certain government programs, such as SBA loan programs and contracting opportunities, are reserved for small businesses. In order to qualify...

www.sba.gov

NAICS has moved!

www.census.gov

 

[Loose Cannon]

About those Small Business Loans, I see the media tripping and falling all over themselves about large businesses getting the loans, etc. Let's see if I can my fellow EE Board buddies a bit.

A Small Business can also be an Other Than Small Business (notice, I did NOT say Large Business, because there is no such thing) under the Small Business Administration rules.
How's that?

The Small Business Administration uses the North American Industry Classification System (NAICS) to determine business size.

There's a NAICS code assigned to every possible type of business and there's a NAICS Size Determination, based on the number of employees and/or the average annual receipts.

So, if a company makes widgets and employs 10,000 people to make widgets, they are an Other Than Small Business for the code assigned to widget makers.

At the same time, the same company has a sideline making shims, but they only employ 10 people doing that. They are a Small Business for the code assigned to shim makers.

I've seen companies that were Small Business for half their NAICS Codes and Other Than Small Business for the other half of their NAICS Codes.

There are also some strange NAICS Codes that can be either Small Business or Other Than Small and their entries contain massive footnotes explaining how the heck that works.

In the end, the deal about "large businesses" getting loans intended for Small Businesses can be extremely misleading, especially given that there is no such thing as a "large business" under the classification system used Small Business Administration and any business can be "Small" or "Other Than Small" simultaneously.

I love my job.

Small Business Association Table of Size Standards

Table of size standards | U.S. Small Business Administration

The table of size standards can also be found online in the small business size regulations set forth in the Electronic Code of Federal Regulations. Certain government programs, such as SBA loan programs and contracting opportunities, are reserved for small businesses. In order to qualify...

www.sba.gov

The only reason you have 20 companies that roll up to the same investors or parent company is because you're already trying to hustle tax law loopholes.

There is no circumstance ever where a company of 10,010 employees should ever get a "small business loan" because one spin-out of the 10,000 person company has 10 employees. That's absurd. Quite literally the only reason that 10 person company exists is to artificially reduce the headcount and liability burden.

Your example is a large company playing tax, accounting, and legal games. They should not be eligible for a PPP loan. Ever.

And I have no problem with using the law to minimize your tax burden. I have an S-Corp, so I'm doing that very thing. But I'm not crying over the fact that because of that, my PPP lender calculated my loan based only off of my salary, which is less than half of my total comp. It's the consequence of having a corporate structure the way I do. So it goes.

 

[DadsDream]

The only reason you have 20 companies that roll up to the same investors or parent company is because you're already trying to hustle tax law loopholes.

There is no circumstance ever where a company of 10,010 employees should ever get a "small business loan" because one spin-out of the 10,000 person company has 10 employees. That's absurd. Quite literally the only reason that 10 person company exists is to artificially reduce the headcount and liability burden.

Your example is a large company playing tax, accounting, and legal games. They should not be eligible for a PPP loan. Ever.

And I have no problem with using the law to minimize your tax burden. I have an S-Corp, so I'm doing that very thing. But I'm not crying over the fact that because of that, my PPP lender calculated my loan based only off of my salary, which is less than half of my total comp. It's the consequence of having a corporate structure the way I do. So it goes.

Oh, I hear you, LC.

No doubt, they're gaming the system and they're doing so with the NAICS Code system recognized by the Small Business Administration and overseen by the OMB and cross-referenced to the federal System for Award Management (SAM) and the IRS.

And it's all perfectly legal.

Just keep in mind, when some headline or reporter uses the term "Large Business," there actually is no such thing under the NAICS system. It's "Other Than Small Business."

 

[SoggyBottomBoy]

About those Small Business Loans, I see the media tripping and falling all over themselves about large businesses getting the loans, etc. Let's see if I can my fellow EE Board buddies a bit.

A Small Business can also be an Other Than Small Business (notice, I did NOT say Large Business, because there is no such thing) under the Small Business Administration rules.
How's that?

The Small Business Administration uses the North American Industry Classification System (NAICS) to determine business size.

There's a NAICS code assigned to every possible type of business and there's a NAICS Size Determination, based on the number of employees and/or the average annual receipts.

So, if a company makes widgets and employs 10,000 people to make widgets, they are an Other Than Small Business for the code assigned to widget makers.

At the same time, the same company has a sideline making shims, but they only employ 10 people doing that. They are a Small Business for the code assigned to shim makers.

I've seen companies that were Small Business for half their NAICS Codes and Other Than Small Business for the other half of their NAICS Codes.

There are also some strange NAICS Codes that can be either Small Business or Other Than Small and their entries contain massive footnotes explaining how the heck that works.

In the end, the deal about "large businesses" getting loans intended for Small Businesses can be extremely misleading, especially given that there is no such thing as a "large business" under the classification system used Small Business Administration and any business can be "Small" or "Other Than Small" simultaneously.

I love my job.

Small Business Association Table of Size Standards

Table of size standards | U.S. Small Business Administration

The table of size standards can also be found online in the small business size regulations set forth in the Electronic Code of Federal Regulations. Certain government programs, such as SBA loan programs and contracting opportunities, are reserved for small businesses. In order to qualify...

www.sba.gov

NAICS has moved!

www.census.gov

All I see is someone "tripping and falling all over himself" trying to claim the media is at fault for a "non-story" when there actually is one. Nice try DD.

Sincerely,
A small business owner that was repeatedly told by Hancock Whitney for about 8 days in a row that we couldn't submit forms yet because they were continually changing the application forms all the while paperwork was being processed for other businesses.

What? What forms did they use? We started the process on the first day we were eligible to apply. A satisfactory form just went into the pipeline two days ago. Now we wait and see if there will be another wave of funds.

 

[Saint_Ward]

What's stopping them now? This "lockdown" we are in is just a word.... Unless Marshall law is declared and the troops are deployed... none of this is lawfully enforceable, and everything is a suggestion, guideline, or request from our leaders... I read a document that said this once.

Obviously (like I said)... things like public transportation and air travel effect those "handful of densely populated areas in each state" I was referring to... and yes... those places and those methods of travel need to be way more prudent with their choices to re-open, and what to re-open and when...

My point was there are hundreds of thousands of places around this country that do not have airports, public transit, nor have they been overwhelmed by this... with some common sense guidelines on sanitation, social distancing , and minimal essential travel requests... those places can re-open now.

We live in a Free Country... for anything to be enforceable, it first has to be lawful... that's just the way it is. At some point we have to give our people guidelines, best practices, and ask them to follow them... then trust them to do so... just like with everything else... especially in areas where this has not been an issue, and is far less likely to be.

In those cases, the onus needs to be on companies to provide safe working conditions. I don't know if they'd have to amend OSHA's authority for pandemics, but that meat processing plant in South Dakota is a prime example of a small area, with one 'factory' that caused a massive outbreak.

I'm not disagreeing with you, btw. I'm just trying to flesh this out a bit. We can't just go by 'common sense' or 'trust'. We don't necessarily need to 'enforce' either. However, there needs to be a level of control/enforcement at various points of entry, large shopping centers, businesses, etc. Government (local, state, fed) can't just tell people to please do something, they have to out there pushing the message.

 

[Taurus]

In those cases, the onus needs to be on companies to provide safe working conditions. I don't know if they'd have to amend OSHA's authority for pandemics, but that meat processing plant in South Dakota is a prime example of a small area, with one 'factory' that caused a massive outbreak.

I'm not disagreeing with you, btw. I'm just trying to flesh this out a bit. We can't just go by 'common sense' or 'trust'. We don't necessarily need to 'enforce' either. However, there needs to be a level of control/enforcement at various points of entry, large shopping centers, businesses, etc. Government (local, state, fed) can't just tell people to please do something, they have to out there pushing the message.

And they have to do so consistently. Not be flippity-flopping between "hoax" and "war" and "open by Easter" and "200,000 deaths is a total success" and "Liberate <insert state here>" and whatever the hell the next stupid thing they'll say is.

 

[Saint_Ward]

I mean heck, you ever try to get a kid under the age of 8 to wash their hands? lol.

 

[DadsDream]

All I see is someone "tripping and falling all over himself" trying to claim the media is at fault for a "non-story" when there actually is one. Nice try DD.

Sincerely,
A small business owner that was repeatedly told by Hancock Whitney for about 8 days in a row that we couldn't submit forms yet because they were continually changing all the while paperwork was being processed for other businesses.

What? What forms did they use? We started the process on the first day eligible to apply. A satisfactory form just went into the pipeline two days ago. Now we wait and see if there will be another wave of funds.

Hi SBB.

Not at all. I'm just offering up some info to help folks separate informed sources from misinformed sources. Anybody who uses the term "Large Business" is misinformed, because the Small Business Administration has gone waaaay out of its way to not use that term.

"Other Than Small Business" is the term the SBA uses.

Hancock Whitney has their own issues and priorities and I can well appreciate your frustration with them.

The info I provided is straight up from federal websites dealing with the classification of business sizes.

Really, I'm pulling for the little guy in all this.

 

[Loose Cannon]

On PPP loans.. in other news I just now got my email from Wells Fargo talking about going forward with the loan and asking for more documentation.

I sent my application in within 5 minutes of them opening it up on their site, with every piece of documentation and then some. And yet somehow I ended up way at the back of the line.

I think this is the impetus I need to finally move everything over to a credit union or a more principled company. I let the fake checking account thing go because I have had pretty good experiences with Wells Fargo in a few situations. Probably because they have every account I own including business and I'm flagged as a "VIP" (as a teller told me - though he said there are a couple levels above that..). Has anyone actually had a good experience with a large national bank through all of this?

 

[DadsDream]

I mean heck, you ever try to get a kid under the age of 8 to wash their hands? lol.

I never did. Now, I did get my mouth washed out with Ivory bar soap a lot.
My father could cuss like the old Marine that he was, but I couldn't even say "crap" or my mom would break out the Ivory.
"Ivory Soap, It Floats! 99 44/100% Pure!"