COVID-19 Outbreak (Update: More than 2.9M cases and 132,313 deaths in US) (2 Viewers)

[Bayouboy]

I mean we're already going to be subsidizing billionaires in the hotel, airline, cruise ship, O&G, farm, and tons of other industries. Is subsidizing small restaurant owners the line in the sand where we choose to be outraged?

You're right. There can't be that many bars and restaurants in this country.

 

[Eeyore]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but who on this forum has worn a mask for more than 2 hours at a time? I do it on a regular basis, and it's a miserable existence. I do it because I come into contact with sick people and I don't want to bring something home with me. But boys, I'm not sure it is practical to ask people wear PPE for a 10-hour work day. I think that is a very reasonable request in short bursts, such as going to a sporting event, going to the grocery store, going to the restaurant. I also have very little confidence that the average person can wear PPE that long without touching the outside of their evil PPE and completely defeating the purpose of the PPE in the first place.

I think that at some point we are just going to have to send the kids back to school...ready or not. And it'll have to be without PPE. They will be little carrier monkeys, and we will have to try to keep them away from immunocompromised or elderly. Kids that are immunocompromised will have to be home schooled. It's unfortunate, but it's time to put forward realistic strategies.

I addressed the long-term mask wearing with management last week.

We were discussing how we were going to proceed when we go back to work. They were talking about n95 masks.

I brought up that it's, often, 100-120 degrees and humid on the floor. The masks are fine for people in the pulpits who are sitting in chairs a d pushing buttons but the masks won't last 30 minutes on the floor. Even if they do it'll be very difficult to breathe in them, and they'll fog our safety glasses, in those conditions.

We have face shields that attach to our hard hats that cover our entire faces. They're not as effective as masks in normal conditions but I think that it's a good compromise.

 

[St. Widge]

Well...see don't arrest and shoot people for not wearing a mask. Fear is a nice incentive.

The thing is that may or may not be true in China, but it certainly isn't true in Japan. The Japanese have been wearing masks for many, many years and they don't have an authoritarian government. It's cultural more that it is an effect of authoritarian government.

I agree that wearing a mask sucks, but I suspect some are more comfortable than others. Some serious effort needs to go into making masks or other face coverings more readily available. I've been trying to find masks pretty mush so since this all started and I still only have what I happened to have had int he house when this all started. I have stuff on order from several locations, but none have arrived yet. I'm sure many have just given up at this point. But, there will need to be better availability of masks and testing before we can really open back up.

As far as kids, there is no way that they can wear masks all day long so I don't see any options but to continue remote learning until this all calms down. Parents are just going to have to make more effort to teach and engage with their kids. It may be possible to send them back to schools in 4 months, but as L.C. said, we really don't know right now.

 

[Loose Cannon]

You're right. There can't be that many bars and restaurants in this country.

I don't know what point you think you've made here.

 

[sammymvpknight]

We don't. Correct. Maybe we should? I dunno. But it's either we stay at home, or we get out and learn to use PPE and distancing. Otherwise, we're screwed.

We're screwed either way. Sorry. You can't force people to be confined to their house for extended periods of time...highly unconstitutional. So we are just going to have to deal with some people not wearing PPE when out in the public. Eventually we will have herd immunity...one way or another...whether or not we are flattening the curve or not. That's the type of immunity that occurs when there is not a vaccination present.

I addressed the long-term mask wearing with management last week.

We were discussing how we were going to proceed when we go back to work. They were talking about n95 masks.

I brought up that it's, often, 100-120 degrees and humid on the floor. The masks are fine for people in the pulpits who are sitting in chairs a d pushing buttons but the masks won't last 30 minutes on the floor. Even if they do it'll be very difficult to breathe in them, and they'll fog our safety glasses, in those conditions.

We have face shields that attach to our hard hats that cover our entire faces. They're not as effective as masks in normal conditions but I think that it's a good compromise.

N95's are not practical...AT ALL...in your work environment and it's debatable whether or not they are even necessary. N95's have been associated with reduced oxygenation in a few studies. COVID-19 is a disease process of reduced oxygenation. There is a concern of mine that N95's may potentially tip an asymptomatic COVID patient into being symptomatic. I have poor science to back that up...but heck, there this entire COVID-19 situation is built upon questionable at best science to begin with. Anyone who has ever worn an N95 knows that you really heat up with the mask and it's simply not breathable. It really should only be worn in short bursts and in healthcare workers who are at high risk of receiving high viral loads, which seems to be one of the primary mechanisms this disease is killing otherwise healthy and young people.

 

[sammymvpknight]

The thing is that may or may not be true in China, but it certainly isn't true in Japan. The Japanese have been wearing masks for many, many years and they don't have an authoritarian government. It's cultural more that it is an effect of authoritarian government.

I agree that wearing a mask sucks, but I suspect some are more comfortable than others. Some serious effort needs to go into making masks or other face coverings more readily available. I've been trying to find masks pretty mush so since this all started and I still only have what I happened to have had int he house when this all started. I have stuff on order from several locations, but none have arrived yet. I'm sure many have just given up at this point. But, there will need to be better availability of masks and testing before we can really open back up.

As far as kids, there is no way that they can wear masks all day long so I don't see any options but to continue remote learning until this all calms down. Parents are just going to have to make more effort to teach and engage with their kids. It may be possible to send them back to schools in 4 months, but as L.C. said, we really don't know right now.

I agree...I lived in Japan for a few years. But it is a cultural difference. The Japanese AGREE to do it because it's the culturally correct thing to do. They are doing it with free will. The same can't be said of other countries in Asia. If the US does get to the point where we are all using masks regularly, it should be because of free will...not because a bureaucrat is telling us that we have to do it. I think that it's the right thing to do...and that's why I do it. But forcing the issue is definitely going to make matters worse.

 

[St. Widge]

I'll see a patient for 45 minutes with my mask. The moment I leave the room, I need to rip my mask off to get a breath of fresh air. My face is covered with sweat, so I have a natural tendency to rub my face the moment the mask comes off. I need to have paper towels outside the room to dry my face so that I don't touch my face. This is for a 30-45 minute period. It's just awful. There is just no way that the average human being is going to put up with that and do it correctly without contaminating themselves and other surfaces. I think that the benefit of the masks more than anything is that it gets people to be more mindful of this disease and pay closer attention to their surroundings. It's a uniform...our COVID-19 uniform, and there is something that can be said in the change behaviors while in uniform. But should we force people into wearing masks? No. I would like to think that we could do our best to convince people that it is a good idea under the right circumstances.

Here is the thing. People are dumb. They will do dumb things. So, masks aren't going to be 100% effective. But, they will be some percentage of effective and even if that's only 50% effective it could slow the virus down enough to be able to maintain some semblance of an economy while not overwhelming the healthcare system. As Dave said, it's either we try going to social distancing with PPE or we all stay home until this is over.

 

[Eeyore]

I mean we're already going to be subsidizing billionaires in the hotel, airline, cruise ship, O&G, farm, and tons of other industries. Is subsidizing small restaurant owners the line in the sand where we choose to be outraged?

That's the line that's drawn by the boot lickers in our society. In 2017, the billionaires that made up the fortune 400 had more wealth than the botton 204 million U.S. citizens, combined. That divide has grown.

But we help the billionaires. I guess, if people have a refined palate, they can taste brisket while licking master's leather boots.

 

[St. Widge]

I agree...I lived in Japan for a few years. But it is a cultural difference. The Japanese AGREE to do it because it's the culturally correct thing to do. They are doing it with free will. The same can't be said of other countries in Asia. If the US does get to the point where we are all using masks regularly, it should be because of free will...not because a bureaucrat is telling us that we have to do it. I think that it's the right thing to do...and that's why I do it. But forcing the issue is definitely going to make matters worse.

I'm not saying we should have the police enforcing it. But there needs to be a concerted PR campaign to get people to wear them and turn it into a cultural thing here. We need to make it a fashion accessory. We need social media influencers and fashion magazines to make them into high fashion. Then the masses will follow. Or start a mask challenge that ends up shaming people who don't wear them.

I'm half joking about that, but we probably should do that along with a massive public health campaign on the importance of face coverings. I mean, even the NFL has figured out that branded masks are going to be big business. They started advertising a whole line of NFL team masks. Although I don't think they will ship for quite awhile.

 

[Loose Cannon]

Here is the thing. People are dumb. They will do dumb things. So, masks aren't going to be 100% effective. But, they will be some percentage of effective and even if that's only 50% effective it could slow the virus down enough to be able to maintain some semblance of an economy while not overwhelming the healthcare system. As Dave said, it's either we try going to social distancing with PPE or we all stay home until this is over.

This.

"We can't do it perfectly so let's not try" is a pretty un-American attitude. JMO, of course.

 

[sammymvpknight]

Here is the thing. People are dumb. They will do dumb things. So, masks aren't going to be 100% effective. But, they will be some percentage of effective and even if that's only 50% effective it could slow the virus down enough to be able to maintain some semblance of an economy while not overwhelming the healthcare system. As Dave said, it's either we try going to social distancing with PPE or we all stay home until this is over.

We aren't going to stay home until this is over. That's just not happening. Any thought that is even remotely possible should be immediately deleted from the trash bin. Some of us will continue to have social distancing with or without PPE, and some will not. And life will go on for better or for worse.

We had our first friend over this week. He was well and we were all well. It's the first person from outside the family that we have had interactions with in the past handful of months. It was time. We will probably one of our kids come over to play in the next few weeks, because we find that to be important for our children. Of course there are risks, but I think that all of us are trying to find balances right now...and script social distancing guidance is I think moving the needle toward a net negative for my family, so we will make some modifications.

 

[sammymvpknight]

This.

"We can't do it perfectly so let's not try" is a pretty un-American attitude. JMO, of course.

But the flip side of that is..."I see people out in the community not wearing masks, so lets FORCE people into it with even tighter regulations." Let people make sacrifices on their own terms. Try to convince people to continue to make small sacrifices.

 

[St. Widge]

I don't know the answer. I think ultimately, if distancing in restaurants is going to become the norm for any length of time, they will have to significantly raise prices to make the economics work.

Restaurants here are actually not doing too terrible because a lot of people are still picking up or taking deliveries. I ordered last night online, went to the restaurant and they dropped it in my passenger side window in the seat. Payment was done online. No direct contact. Those who adapt and provide workable alternative solutions should survive, at least in the short term.

I think the restaurants can survive. The issue is the former restaurant employees since doing curb side and take out doesn't take as many employees. But that's why the Feds need to be pumping money to people who need it.

 

[Eeyore]

N95's are not practice...AT ALL...in your work environment

In the past we had to take an annual fit test. They're nice when welding, burning, and spraying refractory. A lot of guys refuse to wear them when welding but nobody refuses when they're near refractory being sprayed.

We stopped it, and signed a waiver stating that when we use them it is voluntary, because people weren't wearing them properly and were refusing to shave.

 

[kat5s]

A conservative assessment applied to the COVID-19 estimated R0 of 2.4 (7) might posit 50% mask usage and a 50% mask efficacy level, reducing R0 to 1.35, an order of magnitude impact rendering spread comparable to the reproduction number of seasonal influenza. To put this in perspective, 100 cases at the start of a month becomes 31,280 cases by the month’s end (R0 = 2.4) vs. only 584 cases (R0 = 1.35). Such a slowdown in case-load protects healthcare capacity and renders a local epidemic amenable to contact tracing interventions that can eliminate the spread entirely.

A full range of efficacy e and adherence pm is shown with the resulting R0 in Figure 1, illustrating regimes in which growth is halted entirely (R0 < 1) as well as pessimistic regimes (e.g. due to poor implementation or population compliance) that nonetheless result in a beneficial effect in suppressing the exponential growth of the pandemic.

Face Masks Against COVID-19: An Evidence Review

The science around the use of masks by the general public to impede COVID-19 transmission is advancing rapidly. Policymakers need guidance on how masks should be used by the general population to combat the COVID-19 pandemic. Here, we synthesize the relevant literature to inform multiple areas...

www.preprints.org