Update Dave Ziegler joining the Saints as an advisor for Free Agency and the draft (Saints permanently hire Ziegler as Personnel Advisor) (2 Viewers)

[VPCajun]

Ex Patriots Scout/ex Raiders GM Dave Ziegler joining the SRaintders as an advisor for the draft​

fify

 

[Saint Greg]

Ireland has been more above average since 2017. What we tend to do a lot is exaggerate how bad the draft classes are and write off the rest of the class when one pick doesn’t work out. One unsuccessful pick doesn’t define a class when there’s 2-3+ productive players drafted with them.

Foskey was in the same class with Bresee, Miller, Perry, and Howden. Turner was in the same class with Werner and Adebo. Penning was drafted with Olave and Taylor. The rest of the classes are severely ignored to the point as if Olave, Adebo, Werner, Taylor, Bresee and others were never drafted or doesn’t exist.

It’s still too early to write off Penning and Foskey.
It takes 2 or 3 full seasons to determine if a player won’t live up to expectations. Turner hasn’t been a bust in pressuring the QB.

Have we drafted any all-pros in the past six years?

 

[rlemieux]

Ireland isn’t the one letting Howie Roseman give him a prostate exam every year. He’s not the one trading pick after picks for players that don’t play. Ireland made it very clear in his interview this year where he stands on the draft and having more picks.

 

[madsaint1967]

Ireland has been more above average since 2017. What we tend to do a lot is exaggerate how bad the draft classes are and write off the rest of the class when one pick doesn’t work out. One unsuccessful pick doesn’t define a class when there’s 2-3+ productive players drafted with them.

Foskey was in the same class with Bresee, Miller, Perry, and Howden. Turner was in the same class with Werner and Adebo. Penning was drafted with Olave and Taylor. The rest of the classes are severely ignored to the point as if Olave, Adebo, Werner, Taylor, Bresee and others were never drafted or doesn’t exist.

It’s still too early to write off Penning and Foskey.
It takes 2 or 3 full seasons to determine if a player won’t live up to expectations. Turner hasn’t been a bust in pressuring the QB.

Ireland has been more above average since 2017. What we tend to do a lot is exaggerate how bad the draft classes are and write off the rest of the class when one pick doesn’t work out. One unsuccessful pick doesn’t define a class when there’s 2-3+ productive players drafted with them.

Foskey was in the same class with Bresee, Miller, Perry, and Howden. Turner was in the same class with Werner and Adebo. Penning was drafted with Olave and Taylor. The rest of the classes are severely ignored to the point as if Olave, Adebo, Werner, Taylor, Bresee and others were never drafted or doesn’t exist.

It’s still too early to write off Penning and Foskey.
It takes 2 or 3 full seasons to determine if a player won’t live up to expectations. Turner hasn’t been a bust in pressuring the QB.

I say mediocre, you say above average.

 

[SonOfNOLA]

Have we drafted any all-pros in the past six years?

We’ve drafted two players who appear to be future All-Pros, Olave and Adebo. Adebo was robbed of 2nd team AP last season. He finished top 5 in 3 coverage categories in 2023.

They’re two picks within the last 6 years who finished top 5-10 in stat categories at their positions. That can be a better indication of how immediate successful or productive the players are. Lack of team success can hurt players in the AP voting process.

I think the ‘17 class set the bar high for any rookie class for making AP teams within their first 2 years. It’s been 1-3 seasons for the ‘21-‘23 classes. AK and Ram haven’t been selected to an AP team since their rookie contracts.

 

[VPCajun]

Every stone but his own.

Well, rumor has it that he has no stones...

 

[SonOfNOLA]

I say mediocre, you say above average.

Mediocre is not very good drafting. Above average is above or better than half of the league’s draft classes. Big difference between the two especially when mediocre is used to describe the drafts as the highest measure

Since 2018, 3 good picks out of 6 1st rounders (two are still TBD), 3 good picks out of 4 2nd rounders, and 4 good picks out of 5 3rd rounders isn’t mediocre drafting. Thats a really solid draft success rate of 10 out of 15 early round picks (67%) since ‘18 draft. 11 out of 15 (73%) when considering Turner’s shown good pass rush ability.

1st round pick rate (50%) looks mediocre. But the 1st round isn’t the entire draft. It’s more to drafting than the 1st rd. It’s only been 1-2 years since Foskey and Penning were drafted. Describing the overall drafting as mediocre implies that most of the draft classes’ picks haven’t been good when that isn’t the case

 

[livefromDC]

Ireland is not the problem. If you look at the Saints picks in a vacuum, you'd think they weren't drafting well. However, I'd say they are doing pretty well when you look at all teams across the league. The Saints roster is not talent depleted like some, that's due to drafting. It's just that the Saints have had fewer than average picks for several years now. The fact that the Saints have been able to remain somewhat competitive (despite coaching) is due to the picks that they've hit on.

Ireland has done well with the picks he routinely makes (later rounds). For the early rounds, that's up to Loomis and the head coach. Given the number of picks we've had, the Saints strategy has been on full display the last few years. It has been pretty hit or miss but the evaluations were arguably on point. Did the Saints take Penning because Ireland had him ranked as the best player on the board or did Loomis and Allen really want to fill the LT position? I think it was the latter.

So again, I say Ireland isn't the problem. It's reaching early (LT, DE) compounded by not having a full compliment of draft picks that's makes it look dire, but it's really not.

If the Saints weren't doing well in the draft, they would be devoid of talent. That's not the case or even close to it.

 

[B4YOU]

We’ve drafted two players who appear to be future All-Pros, Olave and Adebo. Adebo was robbed of 2nd team AP last season. He finished top 5 in 3 coverage categories in 2023.

They’re two picks within the last 6 years who finished top 5-10 in stat categories at their positions. That can be a better indication of how immediate successful or productive the players are. Lack of team success can hurt players in the AP voting process.

I think the ‘17 class set the bar high for any rookie class for making AP teams within their first 2 years. It’s been 1-3 seasons for the ‘21-‘23 classes. AK and Ram haven’t been selected to an AP team since their rookie contracts.

Adebo is undervalued because of Latt and the Saints complete lack of pass rush. I think the 2nd team AP should drop the "slot" category for CB and just do 3 CB. An awesome "slot" could still win that 2nd AP, but it would open it up to the 5th best boundary CB. It would be similar to what is done with WR and LB.

I don't think Adebo gets selected despite his 4 INTs, 54.1% comp, and 18 PD because Latt played half the season.

 

[DSnfla]

Since ‘19 draft
2019: McCoy, Gardner-Johnson, Elliss
2020: Ruiz, Baun (as a pass rusher)
2021: Werner, Adebo
2022: Olave, Taylor
2023: Bresee, Howden

Perry and Miller also looks like they’ll take the leap to become starter level players in 2024. Landon Young has 6 career starts as a ‘21 6th round OT and has never been cut for the PS.

Don't confuse those kind with facts, they think that every other teams drafts are filled with 5 all-pros every yr

 

[DSnfla]

Ex Raiders GM, coach, asst coaches, players.

Anyone want to look at the Raiders W/L record the last 20 years?

The guy spent 9 yrs with the Pats up till 2020 , you want to look at their W/L record. Do some research

 

[Saint Greg]

We’ve drafted two players who appear to be future All-Pros, Olave and Adebo. Adebo was robbed of 2nd team AP last season. He finished top 5 in 3 coverage categories in 2023.

They’re two picks within the last 6 years who finished top 5-10 in stat categories at their positions. That can be a better indication of how immediate successful or productive the players are. Lack of team success can hurt players in the AP voting process.

I think the ‘17 class set the bar high for any rookie class for making AP teams within their first 2 years. It’s been 1-3 seasons for the ‘21-‘23 classes. AK and Ram haven’t been selected to an AP team since their rookie contracts.

I’m not expecting 2017. It was inflated because we had an extra 1st round pick from the cooks trade and an extra 3rd round pick by trading our 2018 2nd.

I do think it’s bad to not be able to draft a single all-pro in 6 years.

 

[SonOfNOLA]

I’m not expecting 2017. It was inflated because we had an extra 1st round pick from the cooks trade and an extra 3rd round pick by trading our 2018 2nd.

I do think it’s bad to not be able to draft a single all-pro in 6 years.

Having 5 early round picks gave us a good chance to select an immediate all-pro from the 2017 class. We barely had any early picks in 2019-2020. From those drafts we still managed to get two top 10 OL at their positions who played really well for top 2nd contracts.

I think we’ve drafted All-Pro tier talent since then when statistically comparing them to All-Pro selected players. They’ve been in the league for just 2-3 years.

Thomas didn’t have his undisputed all-pro seasons until his 3rd and 4th seasons. It took Cam Jordan and Armstead 6**-7** years for their All-Pro selections. I think with a new OC and 2nd year with Carr, Olave has an opportunity for a 100+ reception season similar to Thomas’ AP years.

 

[Saint Greg]

Having 5 early round picks gave us a good chance to select an immediate all-pro from the 2017 class. We barely had any early picks in 2019-2020. From those drafts we still managed to get two top 10 OL at their positions who played really well for top 2nd contracts.

I think we’ve drafted All-Pro tier talent since then when statistically comparing them to All-Pro selected players. They’ve been in the league for just 2-3 years.

Thomas didn’t have his undisputed all-pro seasons until his 3rd and 4th seasons. It took Cam Jordan and Armstead 4-5 years for their All-Pro selections. I think with a new OC and 2nd year with Carr, Olave has an opportunity for a 100+ reception season similar to Thomas’ AP years.

If we didn’t have picks it’s because we traded them to move up. You brag on McCoy, but then complain that we don’t have the 2nd round pick we traded to move up for him. You can’t have it both ways.

I don’t know if McCoy is a top 10 center. I remember him grading out as our best OL this year but it wasn’t great. There’s no way I’m believing Ruiz is a top 10 guard.

Amon Ra was drafted the same year as Olave. First team all-pro. Ceedee was drafted one year earlier. First team all-pro. Their teams didn’t trade up for those guys. That gave them those extra picks that allowed them to become contenders.

We’re really lucky we got those picks for Payton. We would’ve been so screwed with no 1 last year and no 2 this year.

 

[SonOfNOLA]

If we didn’t have picks it’s because we traded them to move up. You brag on McCoy, but then complain that we don’t have the 2nd round pick we traded to move up for him. You can’t have it both ways.

I don’t know if McCoy is a top 10 center. I remember him grading out as our best OL this year but it wasn’t great. There’s no way I’m believing Ruiz is a top 10 guard.

Amon Ra was drafted the same year as Olave. First team all-pro. Ceedee was drafted one year earlier. First team all-pro. Their teams didn’t trade up for those guys. That gave them those extra picks that allowed them to become contenders.

We’re really lucky we got those picks for Payton. We would’ve been so screwed with no 1 last year and no 2 this year.

No complaints from me about anything. I’m just pointing out the differences in each draft classes contributing to drafting an immediate all-pro selection. You’re complaining about not drafting an all-pro in 6 years to measure how great they are while the players who have AP talent just began their careers. Point was there’s a high chance to land immediate all-pro selected players when there’s a full deck of early round picks or more like 2017’s class.

Just because a player hasn’t been selected to an all-pro team within 2 years, or to begin their careers, doesn’t mean they won’t be all-pros, or that they aren’t among the best at their positions, or that they aren’t very successful picks. Some positions in the league are deeper than others of highly productive players which requires players to stand out in certain stat categories more to AP voters to put them in the top 5 votes for a selection.

Amon-Ra is a first team all-pro in year 3 with a 119 reception year. Ceedee Lamb made second team all-pro in year 3 with 107 recs and first team all-pro in year 4 with 135 recs. Lamb’s recs in year 3 jumped from 79 into the 100s. Amon-Ra got the AP voters’ attention in year 3 after a 106 rec season in year 2 once his team started winning more in his 3rd year.

Chris Olave has played just 2 seasons. His reception total has increased each season from 72 to 87. He appears to be in line for another reception jump like Amon-Ra and Lamb did in their 3rd years.

It took Michael Thomas 3 years before he was an all-pro when he had his first 120+ rec season in ‘18. Cam Jordan was selected in 7 years. Armstead in 6 years. There was a 7 year gap between Jimmy Graham’s first all-pro selection and Cam Jordan’s first all-pro selection.

There’s no time limit requirement for an elite player to be selected to an all-pro team to determine if they’re elite/all-pro caliber or if they were a great pick. Different factors goes into the AP voting process.