Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (4 Viewers)

[DaveXA]

Just a banger of an insta post. Every line is almost poetic. "Terrorist speak" from a 7 year old "Hamas boy". Chef's kiss.

It's become pretty clear where you and a whole lot of other people are gonna end up goin for the rest of this thread so I thought I'd drop that gem in the likely case I voluntarily excuse myself from this increasingly normal thread.

I still don't know what it has to do with this thread. Please be specific.

 

[livefromDC]

Right or wrong, if you're a guest of the country and break laws while here, you can and often will lose the privilege, meaning loss of visa etc.

If they're citizens, then they can be charged with whatever crime they commit. Physical intimidation and assaulting people is a crime and they can be arrested.

That said, a lot of college students are here on student visas and can get deported if they cause trouble while here. It does happen.

People are wrongfully imprisoned for crimes that they didn't commit too. Does this knowledge influence how you felt about Charles Manson (or insert your favorite evil person) being found guilty? Of course not. You had no reason to suspect that he wasn't guilty.

My point being, what evidence do you have that these college kids are any less American than the White Nationalists or hate groups/cults that have plagued our society for decades? Not trying to pick on you Dave, but "othering" or setting apart these college kids as foreigners too closely resembles a path towards xenophobia that only leads to more problems. Yes, college aged kids get visas to study in the US, but knowing firsthand that many college campus are deeply split on this issue, these are definitely mostly American college students on either side, supporting Isreal or Palestine. Half of college campuses in the US are not foreign born students.

Tensions rise on college campuses as students react to Israel-Hamas war

The Israel-Hamas war has upended activity on U.S. college campuses, pitting student groups against their own university leaders as long-simmering tensions between pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian or…

thehill.com

Let's not call for deporting people we don't know not to be American citizens.

 

[Semper]

 

[DaveXA]

People are wrongfully imprisoned for crimes that they didn't commit too. Does this knowledge influence how you felt about Charles Manson (or insert your favorite evil person) being found guilty? Of course not. You had no reason to suspect that he wasn't guilty.

My point being, what evidence do you have that these college kids are any less American than the White Nationalists or hate groups/cults that have plagued our society for decades? Not trying to pick on you Dave, but "othering" or setting apart these college kids as foreigners too closely resembles a path towards xenophobia that only leads to more problems. Yes, college aged kids get visas to study in the US, but knowing firsthand that many college campus are deeply split on this issue, these are definitely mostly American college students on either side, supporting Isreal or Palestine. Half of college campuses in the US are not foreign born students.

Tensions rise on college campuses as students react to Israel-Hamas war

The Israel-Hamas war has upended activity on U.S. college campuses, pitting student groups against their own university leaders as long-simmering tensions between pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian or…

thehill.com

Let's not call for deporting people we don't know not to be American citizens.

I already addressed that. Not sure what more I can add to what I said. If they're citizens charge them with assault or whatever. If they have a student visa, they can get deported. My point is intimidation and using the threat of violence regardless what side you're on is unacceptable, period.

 

[DaveXA]

Well, I'm happy no one got injured. Whatever said your support, mind your surroundings. It sucks, but there are too many crazy people out there.

 

[livefromDC]

I already addressed that. Not sure what more I can add to what I said. If they're citizens charge them with assault or whatever. If they have a student visa, they can get deported. My point is intimidation and using the threat of violence regardless what side you're on is unacceptable, period.

And I'm dismissing that "if" just as quickly as you dismissed the idea that white hate groups could be deported. You were very quick to say, they can't be deported. You laughed at the idea that they could be deported...because they're US citizens.

I wish, lol, kinda hard to deport a US citizen.

You didn't include a "well if they're not citizens..." statement although the same could be true. They could very well not be US citizens, some of them at least. But you quickly dismissed the idea that any of them were without a second thought. And for good reason, they're likely not.

The undertone of your response (and frankly continued persistence to defend it) is imbued with a sentiment that only furthers the divide building in the USA. Among the rising tide of antisemitism, anti-Isreal, or Pro-Palestine ideas, there's also the notion that being Muslim or supporting Muslims is un-American. You may not realize it, but that qualifier, "if they're not citizens", when talking about college kids who are more than likely US citizens is sewing an idea that these aren't Americans with the same rights "we" Americans have. If we're discussing the norm, there's no need for qualifiers...unless you think there's a deviation from the norm.

Again, I'm not levying an opinion on what happened on this campus. But let's say the tables were turned. I think you say, "I hope these kids are charged, that's inexcusable" and NOT, "they should be deported". Why? Because you know as I know, these are likely all American college students who are either Jewish or support Isreal. I don't think you raise the idea of deportation.

My friend, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just pointing out that the ideas we express and how we hold to them, consciously or not, can relay more than what was intended. We're living in crazy times and it doesn't take much to sew a seed of discontent.

 

[DaveXA]

And I'm dismissing that "if" just as quickly as you dismissed the idea that white hate groups could be deported. You were very quick to say, they can't be deported. You laughed at the idea that they could be deported...because they're US citizens.

I laughed because because I wish they (the white supremacists yeah, the world would be a better place without em) could be deported. And the odds are far more likely they'll be citizens than Israeli and Palestinian college students. I worked on college campuses for 20 years. Most of the ones I knew were international students here on visas. I loved getting to know all of them. I had and still have regular contact with a good number of them, mostly from Lebanon and Syria. One of my best friends is Iranian. He's quite a character and I've learned a lot from him.

You didn't include a "well if they're not citizens..." statement although the same could be true. They could very well not be US citizens, some of them at least. But you quickly dismissed the idea that any of them were without a second thought. And for good reason, they're likely not.

The undertone of your response (and frankly continued persistence to defend it) is imbued with a sentiment that only furthers the divide building in the USA. Among the rising tide of antisemitism, anti-Isreal, or Pro-Palestine ideas, there's also the notion that being Muslim or supporting Muslims is un-American. You may not realize it, but that qualifier, "if they're not citizens", when talking about college kids who are more than likely US citizens is sewing an idea that these aren't Americans with the same rights "we" Americans have. If we're discussing the norm, there's no need for qualifiers...unless you think there's a deviation from the norm.

You're reading way too much into what I said. There's not enough from what I said to draw "undertones" about anything. I made no mention of religion or ethnicity. You're drawing that out of thin air. At least from me. Maybe your conversations with other people are filling the blanks for you, but that would be presumptuous.

Again, I'm not levying an opinion on what happened on this campus. But let's say the tables were turned. I think you say, "I hope these kids are charged, that's inexcusable" and NOT, "they should be deported". Why? Because you know as I know, these are likely all American college students who are either Jewish or support Isreal. I don't think you raise the idea of deportation.

I actually would. I stated as much in an earlier post.

My friend, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just pointing out that the ideas we express and how we hold to them, consciously or not, can relay more than what was intended. We're living in crazy times and it doesn't take much to sew a seed of discontent.

I understand and I know you mean well. You're good people. I'll just say again, you're reading too much into what I said.

I realize there will be some of that conflict here over what's happening in their part of the world. We'll have to navigate that.

All that said, I'm pretty much a homebody these days would rather deal with my own battles without having to deal with everyone else's.

 

[SamAndreas]

Exclusive | Cooper Union barricades Jewish students inside library as pro-Palestinian protesters bang on doors

“When they started banging on the door, my heart started pounding. I was crying. I think if the doors weren’t locked — I don’t know what would have happened.”

nypost.com

Are you saying it didn’t happen?

I would say that it doesn't matter.

 

[SamAndreas]

I laughed because because I wish they (the white supremacists yeah, the world would be a better place without em) could be deported. And the odds are far more likely they'll be citizens than Israeli and Palestinian college students. I worked on college campuses for 20 years. Most of the ones I knew were international students here on visas. I loved getting to know all of them. I had and still have regular contact with a good number of them, mostly from Lebanon and Syria. One of my best friends is Iranian. He's quite a character and I've learned a lot from him.

You're reading way too much into what I said. There's not enough from what I said to draw "undertones" about anything. I made no mention of religion or ethnicity. You're drawing that out of thin air. At least from me. Maybe your conversations with other people are filling the blanks for you, but that would be presumptuous.

I actually would. I stated as much in an earlier post.

I understand and I know you mean well. You're good people. I'll just say again, you're reading too much into what I said.

I realize there will be some of that conflict here over what's happening in their part of the world. We'll have to navigate that.

All that said, I'm pretty much a homebody these days would rather deal with my own battles without having to deal with everyone else's.

The others appear to be making a mountain out of a mole hill. There is noting here worth discussing.

 

[livefromDC]

The others appear to be making a mountain out of a mole hill. There is noting here worth discussing.

To the contrary. Xenophobic rhetoric never starts with large sweeping gestures. This is how it starts, as a seemingly harmless statement about facial features, stereotypes and presumptions about where they are from and to whom are they loyal.

The undertones of Dave's statement are there. Choosing to ignore them or basically say, "well I"m probably right" because of anecdotal experience doesn't lessen that. But since Dave brought it up, as an adjunct professor, I'm still on a college campus. I will be again today. And these kids are very much siding with Palestine and they are very much born and raised on US soil. Your presumption is not as harmless you think. People have used "they're not even from here" or "go back to your own country" to make Asian Americans who are born and raised here feel set a part or "othered". I would think you'd be more sensitive to the harm these type of opinions could have. Is that somehow different? Making a sweeping generalization about college kids on a college campus is different than making a sweeping generalization about Asian Americans who making a living and raised their families in the suburbs? Words do indeed have meaning.

 

[DaveXA]

To the contrary. Xenophobic rhetoric never starts with large sweeping gestures. This is how it starts, as a seemingly harmless statement about facial features, stereotypes and presumptions about where they are from and to whom are they loyal.

The undertones of Dave's statement are there. Choosing to ignore them or basically say, "well I"m probably right" because of anecdotal experience doesn't lessen that. But since Dave brought it up, as an adjunct professor, I'm still on a college campus. I will be again today. And these kids are very much siding with Palestine and they are very much born and raised on US soil. Your presumption is not as harmless you think. People have used "they're not even from here" or "go back to your own country" to make Asian Americans who are born and raised here feel set a part or "othered". I would think you'd be more sensitive to the harm these type of opinions could have. Is that somehow different? Making a sweeping generalization about college kids on a college campus is different than making a sweeping generalization about Asian Americans who making a living and raised their families in the suburbs? Words do indeed have meaning.

I'm gonna say it again, you're ascribing something about what I said that is not there. You're taking what I said and turning it into something that I didn't say or imply. First, you implied I said something about religion, which I didn't, then you're now implying I said something about facial features, stereotypes and presumptions about where they're from when I did nothing of the sort.

And fwiw, my wife is Asian American.

 

[jboss]

I'm gonna say it again, you're ascribing something about what I said that is not there. You're taking what I said and turning it into something that I didn't say or imply. First, you implied I said something about religion, which I didn't, then you're now implying I said something about facial features, stereotypes and presumptions about where they're from when I did nothing of the sort.

Saying that those students should be deported is absolutely presuming where their from.

And fwiw, my wife is Asian American.

I don't know what this has to do with this thread. Please be specific.

 

[DaveXA]

Saying that those students should be deported is absolutely presuming where their from.

I should have added a caveat that "if they were not citizens." Students may or may not be citizens. To be clear, students can be and are sometimes deported when they break laws here. That's part of being a guest in the country.

I don't know what this has to do with this thread. Please be specific.

He brought up Asian Americans, so I'm responding to what he said. But yeah, ignore what I said.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[DaveXA]

Lol, not shocked.