I've Been Accused of being Liberal. Okay I'm laying my cards on the table (2 Viewers)

[JimEverett]

So what is the answer? How do we interrupt the cycle of poverty and dependence on the government for basic needs? I agree that education is important, but that can't help everyone. The bottom line is that I believe that all benefits for food stamps or TANF should be time limited and tied to a work program, unless there is an exemption. If people participate and are moving toward self-sufficiency, then they receive benefits. If they do not cooperate, commit fraud or make no effort to become self-sufficient, they lose their benefits.

The problem there, of course, is that there are kids involved. If a mother doesn't participate to the level required then and is cut off, then it is likely the child or children will suffer.
One avenue that I believe is working is going after the fathers of the children and forcing them to pay the State for the support the State is giving out to the mothers. If you have a well run child support services and court system it is not that hard to fund 75% of your aid to mothers with dependent children programs through child support collections.
There are jurisdictions here in Tennessee that will sometimes run surpluses for the year.
I think the myth of the welfare mother is that very little taxpayer money is actually going to them.

 

[Richard]

The problem there, of course, is that there are kids involved. If a mother doesn't participate to the level required then and is cut off, then it is likely the child or children will suffer.
One avenue that I believe is working is going after the fathers of the children and forcing them to pay the State for the support the State is giving out to the mothers. If you have a well run child support services and court system it is not that hard to fund 75% of your aid to mothers with dependent children programs through child support collections.
There are jurisdictions here in Tennessee that will sometimes run surpluses for the year.
I think the myth of the welfare mother is that very little taxpayer money is actually going to them.

I certainly agree that going after father's could have several positive results. In our state the child support division is severely understaffed to the point that few families are being served the way I believe they should. The local staff they have do the best they can but they should have case loads of about 350-400 cases and they regularly carry between 1,000-1,500. Many women don't really want the state to go after the fathers because they still have a relationship or he helps some voluntarily and that money isn't reported or he is a thug who may have been abusive.

As you suggest, there are some things that can work, but I believe there needs to be a fundamental change in philosophy as it relates to the government assisting the poor. We have been doing essentially the same things for forty years without producing the stated desired results. And doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is futile, absurd, and as it relates to our tax dollars and needy citizens, bordering on criminal neglect, IMO.

 

[Taurus]

That's something that puzzled me about the Washington system.

They'd go after the dad for support, which is cool, but then reduce the state portion of the check by whatever they could get from the dad (minus a $50.00 cut for the state) so at the end of the day, the child (remember the child? It's a program about the child.) is no better off than he was before.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

Gun Control: Most houselholds in Switzerland have an M16s since all adult males are required to be in . Canada has more guns per capita than the U.S. Yet both these countires have miniscule gun deaths compared to the U.S.. Guns aren't the problem, people are. There are tons of gun laws on the books, we don't need more. Want to drastically reduce gun deaths? Legalize most drugs. Voila, drug war ended, fighting over drug turf in inner cities non-existent.

Gay marriage: Should be handled at the state level. Call them 'civil unions'. End tax breaks for married couples, but increase tax breaks for dependent children.

Abortion: Limit to first 6-8 weeks except in circumstance where mothers life in danger.

Church and State: Separate. Against federal funding for faith-based charities. Churches tha become too political must be cracked down on by the IRS.

Taxes: Do away with payroll taxes. I think even the poor should pay some tax, as it gives them an incentive about how that money is spent (ergo, they will be more prone to be involved in government and to vote)

Foreign Policy: Speak softly and carry a big stick Implement a phased withdrawal from Iraq that gets our troops out in 2 years.

Education: Handle at state level. Department of Education should exist but only as advisory board. If state wide testing is done per subject and has any effect on graduation, it shoudl replace any final exams for that course.

Free Trade: Complicated issue. America workers are not competing on an equal footing with foreign workers, since foreing workders can be paid much less and have same standard of living since everything is cheaper. Also in many countires legal protections such unions, overtime and child labor laws are non existent.

Welfare: Support. Eliminate fraud.

Campaign Finance: Bab companies that contribute from being awarded government contracts. Some sort of free network TV and radio time for canidates that generate sufficient popular interest buy appearing on state ballot. Then ban all over TV and/or radio ads.

Death Penalty: Against, except in cases when iincarceration is not possible and convict is likely to kill again. It is not a deterrent and there is chance you can execute an innoncent. Basically the Pope's postion.

Social Security: SS is not a retirement account or a trust fund. It is a basically 'retirment insurance'. If you die before you retire, you don't see a dime of the money you put in. SS is an invesment in America's economy, essentially buying government T-bills. If you don' t think SS is viable, that means that America at some point plans not to pay its debts. If thats the case then SS is not the problem.

Energy: Barring major breakthroughs, we are going to have to go nukes. Before you say 'Chernyobl' or 'Three Mile', there are new designs that are fail safe where meltdown is not possible. The waste hazard is grossly overrated, and pollution for fossi fuel burnign plants spew more radioactive waste than any nuclear plant will.

Environment: Maintain federal parks and wildlife preserves. Encourage other countries to do so where there are habittats hat contain unique and endangered species. Once the habitat is gone, zoos aren't going to cut it.

Immigration: Enforce existing laws. If those don't work, then start having discussions about a wall.

Civil Liberties: Read the Constitution, especially that part about 'Unreasonable searches and seizures'

 

[TulsaSaint]

Paging Paul Caruso:

I am still waiting for an answer as to how child abuse and gay marriage are related.

 

[Richard]

Paging Paul Caruso:

I am still waiting for an answer as to how child abuse and gay marriage are related.

Both phrases have three syllables? :16:

 

[birdog]

You know who you are. Ante up. Let's see who the real "conservatives" are.

Issues:

Gun Control: See 2nd Amendment.
*Gay marriage/abortion: See 10th Amendment; and For limiting Gay marriage, perhaps see 14th amendment.
*Church and STate: See founding fathers--keep them separated.
*Taxes: When High, tax cuts are good, when low, keep them low. Tax subsidies to large corporations has to go. No more corporate welfare.
*Foreign Policy: Get out of Iraq--it's too expensive, and it's a guerrilla war. Let the Iraqis handle their business. I certainly don't support Pax Americana
*Education: Abolish Federal intervention; some funding is good, but abolish oversite.
Trade: I'm for free trade
Welfare: I think some social welfare is good and necessary; we need a social safety net, but not a hammock.
*Campaign Finance--Here I might be considered a bit liberal. Corporations and lobbyists are way too powerful; reign them in somehow.
Death Penalty--I think death is far too merciful a fate.
Social Security--I was actually for the Bush plan--making it more privatized would net a better return for workers' money.
*Energy--I might be construed as a liberal on this issue; nobody can sit here and tell me this country can't invest in some Manhattan project to get this country off the dependency of fossil fuels. It would have miraculous effects vis a vis middle east policy and making this country more entrepreneurial.
*Environment--I don't agree with the extremists, but I believe in common sense government protection of this nation's natural resources.
*Immigration--No more laws limiting immigration. Enforce the ones on the books. Building a fence won't help and would be a big waste of money.
*Civil Liberties--Sorry, giving carte blanche powers vis a vis the Patriot Act violates my true, conservative Lockean sensibilities. Giving an executive branch of government the power to snoop with no oversight is asking for trouble. I don't care if it's in the name of terrorism.

The (*) next to the issue is where I differ from the Republican Party. Notice on many issues it's where HE, and his party as strayed from real (tm) conservative values. There should be no "Child Left Behind," and inviting more government into religion just invites government where it shouldn't be--in people's bedrooms and churches. There should be no federal definition of marriage; it's a state issue.

The one time which I do think massive federal intervention was necessary his administration fell woefully short was Katrina. The only government which was able to respond adequetely was the feds. Things only got better when Bush finally, FINALLY sent in federal troops.

Ante up.

Anybody think I'm a liberal now?

Before I make my views known, I would like to quote Rush Limbaugh, who presented his tv viewers with the "PERFECT" answer to all of the contemporary stances you, and others before you raised in advocating your positions on these subjects, many many moons ago........so here we go:

I am better than you!!......I think deeper, I am more concerned, and I care more than you!!......I AM WEARING A RIBBON!!

These ribbons I'm wearing represent all of the issues we as Americans hold dear!....they're also an indication of our commitment to solving them! Wearing these ribbons illustrate my deep heartfelt sympathy to all those who suffer any discrimination in any way shape or form about the topics they represent!!.....Do you wear a ribbon???.....If you don't, then you are not as good as I am!!....That's why I am better than you, I am more concerned than you, and I care more than you!!.....I AM WEARING A RIBBON!!....this ribbon represents my superiority against those people who do not understand the IMPORTANCE of these issues!! LMAO!

OK......now that I got this off my chest, and proved BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT MY COMMITMENT to all these issues....I want you to forgive me if I don't respect the order in which you posted them.....so let me talk about Immigration....

In the town I live in Southwest Kansas, there are many Mexicans who work at the local meat plant......well a few months ago the Immigration officers RAIDED the facilities, and lo, they found out that 75% of the workforce WERE ILLEGAL ALLIENS!!......Of course it was a huge news in town, but we knew that most of them were illegals, and was asking the officers what will happen to them?....

And then REALITY HIT them like a ton of bricks!......if they take these people back, the plants will have to close down, CAUSE NO AMERICAN WORKER WANTS TO WORK IN THESE PLANTS!......to make the story short....the INS had to back down, and let these people work (which they do to this day)

And here is the BIG QUESTION which Americans have to come to terms with....how can a free society EXIST, if they themselves aren't willing to do the work necessary to its survival??.....OK.... they want these workers to leave??.....are they ready to stop eating meat???....same goes with the produce industry! Today not EVERY JOB is high tech!!.....there are plenty of jobs from the OLD INDUSTRY which are IRREPLACABLE!!....and you know what?....there aren't workers to do these jobs!.....it's hard reality, but we have to re-evaluate our stance on certain subjects BEFORE WE UNILATERALLY DECLARE our preferences without understanding the ramifications our actions create!

I am a republican.....never voted democrat since I started voting, and I consider myself a Reagan republican.....but I just presented reality as is.......and tomorrow more illegal Mexicans will apply for jobs at the meat plants here.......and they will get hired, cause there isn't ANYBODY who will replace them!.......and more and more Americans want them out of the country, as they keep coming!!.......yet after work, all those Americans will go to eat at the local restaurants the meat and produce these ILLEGALS worked on!...... guess what the topic of the day is at the dinner table??

And pretty much the same goes with our commitment to our survival, regarding National Security......can we afford to lose the war, and then face the bombings here on our streets??.....we're certainly will be heading that way, if we chose to abandon Iarq!

I rest my case......

 

[Mr. Paul Caruso]

Paging Paul Caruso:

I am still waiting for an answer as to how child abuse and gay marriage are related.

Child abuse caused by being raised in a dysfunctional family. I did'nt mean physical abuse.

I cringe to think how the children would be treated in school and by their peers.

C

 

[Wombat]

I view health care as an inalienable right. We shouldn't have 50 million uninsured,

We don't. Millions of those are people who've changed jobs in the last year. Millions of others are elligible for medicaid and have not bothered to sign up. Some are young people ,including some with solid incomes, who feel they are healthy and don't need it. The true number and I don't have the textbook(yes, it's included in a book in UNO's MPH program) in front of me, is less than 10 million.

 

[Devildog]

In the town I live in Southwest Kansas, there are many Mexicans who work at the local meat plant......well a few months ago the Immigration officers RAIDED the facilities, and lo, they found out that 75% of the workforce WERE ILLEGAL ALLIENS!!......Of course it was a huge news in town, but we knew that most of them were illegals, and was asking the officers what will happen to them?....

And then REALITY HIT them like a ton of bricks!......if they take these people back, the plants will have to close down, CAUSE NO AMERICAN WORKER WANTS TO WORK IN THESE PLANTS!......to make the story short....the INS had to back down, and let these people work (which they do to this day)

And here is the BIG QUESTION which Americans have to come to terms with....how can a free society EXIST, if they themselves aren't willing to do the work necessary to its survival??.....OK.... they want these workers to leave??.....are they ready to stop eating meat???....same goes with the produce industry! Today not EVERY JOB is high tech!!.....there are plenty of jobs from the OLD INDUSTRY which are IRREPLACABLE!!....and you know what?....there aren't workers to do these jobs!.....it's hard reality, but we have to re-evaluate our stance on certain subjects BEFORE WE UNILATERALLY DECLARE our preferences without understanding the ramifications our actions create!

I am a republican.....never voted democrat since I started voting, and I consider myself a Reagan republican.....but I just presented reality as is.......and tomorrow more illegal Mexicans will apply for jobs at the meat plants here.......and they will get hired, cause there isn't ANYBODY who will replace them!.......and more and more Americans want them out of the country, as they keep coming!!.......yet after work, all those Americans will go to eat at the local restaurants the meat and produce these ILLEGALS worked on!...... guess what the topic of the day is at the dinner table??

And pretty much the same goes with our commitment to our survival, regarding National Security......can we afford to lose the war, and then face the bombings here on our streets??.....we're certainly will be heading that way, if we chose to abandon Iarq!

I rest my case......

Bull. You can get Americans to do those jobs if you pay a decent wage. You cannot convince me for one second that if you pay a decent wage to workers in crop fields and meat plants, that you won't be able to find LEGAL Americans to do those jobs. We have go to stop companies from getting away with the crime of hiring illegals at $2.00 and hour and making a huge profit off of them. It's the legals who are suffering because of it.

And, as far as Iraq, who said it was part of the War on Terror? Believe me, it's not, and I fought there. Withdraw the troops in phases and use them to actually hunt terrorists instead of trying to officiate a civil war. If the new defense sec. and James Baker can change the way we do business in Iraq, then fine. But if we continue like we're are, get 'em out NOW.

 

[St. Widge]

As you suggest, there are some things that can work, but I believe there needs to be a fundamental change in philosophy as it relates to the government assisting the poor. We have been doing essentially the same things for forty years without producing the stated desired results. And doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is futile, absurd, and as it relates to our tax dollars and needy citizens, bordering on criminal neglect, IMO.

Yeah Richard, I really do waiver on this issue. There are times I think it should all be cut out and make people work, but I know it isn't realistic. So, I agree that the system needs to be overhauled.

Having worked in the area, you would know better than I do if the "welfare mother" is a myth. I don't doubt some people do abuse the system, in fact, it could be many. When I say the "welfare mother is largely a myth" I mean that not everyone on welfare is abusing the system and not everyone on welfare wants to keep sucking of the system, or at least if they do, it because they lack the hope of ever being able to better themselves. Of course, I could be wrong, like I said I've never been in the trenches.

I guess in the end where I come down on this is that I am not a big fan of government welfare programs, but I know that in order for us to live in a decent society some for of safety net is required. I would like some sort of education involved and possibly a "workfare" system like Regan proposed years ago. I guess I just assume most people would rather work than live just above the poverty line by collecting government money. And maybe that's naive, but I think if people see an opportunity to better themselves, they won't choose to live that way.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Child abuse caused by being raised in a dysfunctional family. I did'nt mean physical abuse.

I cringe to think how the children would be treated in school and by their peers.

C

I've been told the same thing about my kids.

It's amazing how many of the same arguments are made against gays and gay marriage that were/are used against blacks and interracial marriage.

 

[birdog]

Bull. You can get Americans to do those jobs if you pay a decent wage. You cannot convince me for one second that if you pay a decent wage to workers in crop fields and meat plants, that you won't be able to find LEGAL Americans to do those jobs. We have go to stop companies from getting away with the crime of hiring illegals at $2.00 and hour and making a huge profit off of them. It's the legals who are suffering because of it.

And, as far as Iraq, who said it was part of the War on Terror? Believe me, it's not, and I fought there. Withdraw the troops in phases and use them to actually hunt terrorists instead of trying to officiate a civil war. If the new defense sec. and James Baker can change the way we do business in Iraq, then fine. But if we continue like we're are, get 'em out NOW.

OK.....you are forgiven for not knowing.....do you know what are these companies PAYING the illegals an hour??......do you really think they pay them $2/hr???....do you think they're getting the minimum wage??

If you have no idea what are the hourly wages......let me ask you something.....do you agree with the notion that the free market should dictate the pay of the workers??......or, you subscribe to the notion that the market shouldn't be the one determining the right wages for a job done??.....

OK......just for discussion purposes, I tell you that the hourly wages at these plants are over $14/hr.......right now is between 14.50, or 14.75/hr (and I know that, cause my neighbor is working there, and he told me that.....btw, he's Mexican too, but he's legal).......do you think that is a fair amount for their production, or is it A DISCRIMINATION, and these wages are soooooooo low, that it sucks out the lifeblood of these poor souls!?!

Yet NOT ONE AMERICAN WANTS THESE JOBS!!....NOT ONE!......my neighbor told me that where he's working there isn't ONE WHITE , OR BLACK AMERICAN WHO WORKS THERE! NOT ONE!......imagine that!.....an industry where the only producers are foreigners!

Please, don't give me the discrimination angle......none of these Mexicans feel discriminated.... BUT ALL THE ILLEGALS WANT is for the companies to pay them UNDER THE TABLE, so they won't have to pay the taxes our Gov. takes out of their paychecks!!......maybe you agree that it shouldn't be that way??!!

The war on Iraq is for ONE REASON ONLY!.....is funny how people don't know that!......we're there, b/c we don't want to fight them here!.....and since 9/11 they haven't had a chance moving the fight to our soil!

thanks to our "misguided" leaders.........or should I say, "ex-misguided" leaders...

 

[St. Widge]

Yet NOT ONE AMERICAN WANTS THESE JOBS!!....NOT ONE!......my neighbor told me that where he's working there isn't ONE WHITE , OR BLACK AMERICAN WHO WORKS THERE! NOT ONE!......imagine that!.....an industry where the only producers are foreigners!
...

Not one? Except for your neighbor of course. Or, is he just here on a work visa or do naturalized citizens not count?

As for Iraq, if the reason we went there was to fight them there instead of here, why weren't we told that when the war started? And, what makes you think just because we are fighting them there that they won't also bring the fight here?

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Not one? Except for your neighbor of course. Or, is he just here on a work visa or do naturalized citizens not count?

As for Iraq, if the reason we went there was to fight them there instead of here, why weren't we told that when the war started? And, what makes you think just because we are fighting them there that they won't also bring the fight here?

I'm really disgusted by the fight them there argument. I don't think anything could be less moral than causing tens of thousands of innocent deaths so that we can draw any enemy into their country and "fight them there".

I don't think that's why our government did it. I think they have actually been surprised by the number of foreign fighters that have come into Iraq. However, when I hear citizens use that talking point as validation of the war I just shake my head at how heartless a statement that is.

I really think people don't even pause to consider how many innocent people have died in Iraq when forming an opinion. To many it's just numbers on a screen like a score in a video game. When considering wether or not Iraq was "worth" it you have to consider the loss of innocent Iraqi life as well. Those aren't just numbers in a news article they are real people with real families that really are dying. Sadly I think many Americans only consider a death to be meaningful if it has the term "American" in front it.