Lord of the Rings Series -- Amazon (1 Viewer)

[guidomerkinsrules]

Pretty certain it's Saruman.

Strong possibility that Sauron was in this episode but not meteor man

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I didn't say it was, right?

I think the clear implication is that you think it’s a lesser choice

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I think the clear implication is that you think it’s a lesser choice

I did say I was enjoying it but I think there are changes that don't make sense to me. You seem to get really defensive over this.

 

[tjharris]

Unless you're somewhat familiar with the lore, you're probably going to be a bit lost in the first episode, but it seemed to flow much better by the second. I would wait till the third episode before diving in if you're not already invested going in. But so far if you enjoyed LotR then you will absolutely enjoy this series.

I'll probably wait for most of it to come out anyway. I've become accustomed to binge watching and don't wanna wait for the next episode

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I did say I was enjoying it but I think there are changes that don't make sense to me. You seem to get really defensive over this.

Not you specifically- but you’re usually offer strong reasoning so you’d be one I’d prefer to engage
BUT
I decidedly want both HoD and RoP to succeed and persnicketing about Form is often a poison pill discussion that I’d prefer to head off

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Not you specifically- but you’re usually offer strong reasoning so you’d be one I’d prefer to engage
BUT
I decidedly want both HoD and RoP to succeed and persnicketing about Form is often a poison pill discussion that I’d prefer to head off

I also want them to succeed, but I don't think it's a bad thing to question/criticize choices they make --- it's one of the fun parts about being a fan of a thing. Most of my criticism comes from a place where I've read way more of the lore than most people, even casual fans.... so I recognize that. I think the show will succeed or fail based on the quality of the writing and story telling. People like me who love the lore and story, will be able to accept changes as long as it's well done... doesn't mean I'd rather see it a bit more consistent with the story I grew up with.

I also feel like they could be writing themselves into a box unnecessarily. For example, they only have the rights to the LotR and the appendices right now. They are allowed to request more IP in the future, and if the series is successful, which I hope it is, they can probably get those rights... so Galadriel's rise to power is really a First Age story -- she also wished to rule a kingdom and though she did not swear Feanor's oath, and opposed the Kinslaying, her heart was stirred by the desire of adventure. She is a great counterweight to Faenor. While not as powerful she is wiser, but she also is proud and has her flaws -- she's a great character. So, if Amazon gets the rights to the First Age, she would make a really really good character to follow -- but if it's in this continuity with Amazon, you have to have her end up as merely a leader of the nothern Armies of the High King (and apparently only recently promoted based on her conversation with Elrond in the first episode). That would be a huge step backward from where she ended up in the First Age if we ever get to tell that story.

Meanwhile, in the LotR and appendices, we have the character of Celebrian. Galadriel's daughter. Not a lot is written about her -- so you can do a lot with the character. All we know about her is that she marries Elrond, at some point she is captured by "the Enemy" and tortured, and is rescued by her son, but the damage to her soul is too great and she has to go West leaving Elrond and her children behind -- very tragic story... but that doesn't happen until the 3rd age. You could do all sorts of things with her in the second age....

This is obviously super dorky, and there's a good chance we'll never get to First Age story telling, so my concern with writing Galadriel into a box might be overthinking it... but I would be curious to hear why they made certain changes, because they did employ Tolkien scholars to work on the story, and they obviously know everything I talked about. My concern is they used Galadriel because she's more well known and more marketable -- and I don't think that's terrible, they still have to sell the story to casual fans and not just to super nerds like me... but I hope there are other story telling reasons for doing what they're doing.

But as I said, as long as the story is good, the script is good and the acting is good, it'll be a successful show.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Side note - it should be amusing to people that I'm arguing about holding on to a story from my past, and one of Tolkien's central themes is passage of time, death and change, and the damage that can occur when you try to hold onto something too tightly and not allow it to fade and be replaced with something new.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I also want them to succeed, but I don't think it's a bad thing to question/criticize choices they make --- it's one of the fun parts about being a fan of a thing. Most of my criticism comes from a place where I've read way more of the lore than most people, even casual fans.... so I recognize that. I think the show will succeed or fail based on the quality of the writing and story telling. People like me who love the lore and story, will be able to accept changes as long as it's well done... doesn't mean I'd rather see it a bit more consistent with the story I grew up with.

I also feel like they could be writing themselves into a box unnecessarily. For example, they only have the rights to the LotR and the appendices right now. They are allowed to request more IP in the future, and if the series is successful, which I hope it is, they can probably get those rights... so Galadriel's rise to power is really a First Age story -- she also wished to rule a kingdom and though she did not swear Feanor's oath, and opposed the Kinslaying, her heart was stirred by the desire of adventure. She is a great counterweight to Faenor. While not as powerful she is wiser, but she also is proud and has her flaws -- she's a great character. So, if Amazon gets the rights to the First Age, she would make a really really good character to follow -- but if it's in this continuity with Amazon, you have to have her end up as merely a leader of the nothern Armies of the High King (and apparently only recently promoted based on her conversation with Elrond in the first episode). That would be a huge step backward from where she ended up in the First Age if we ever get to tell that story.

Meanwhile, in the LotR and appendices, we have the character of Celebrian. Galadriel's daughter. Not a lot is written about her -- so you can do a lot with the character. All we know about her is that she marries Elrond, at some point she is captured by "the Enemy" and tortured, and is rescued by her son, but the damage to her soul is too great and she has to go West leaving Elrond and her children behind -- very tragic story... but that doesn't happen until the 3rd age. You could do all sorts of things with her in the second age....

This is obviously super dorky, and there's a good chance we'll never get to First Age story telling, so my concern with writing Galadriel into a box might be overthinking it... but I would be curious to hear why they made certain changes, because they did employ Tolkien scholars to work on the story, and they obviously know everything I talked about. My concern is they used Galadriel because she's more well known and more marketable -- and I don't think that's terrible, they still have to sell the story to casual fans and not just to super nerds like me... but I hope there are other story telling reasons for doing what they're doing.

But as I said, as long as the story is good, the script is good and the acting is good, it'll be a successful show.

All well said
And/but it’s the nature of adaptation
Mary Magdalene was mentioned briefly in a few stories but there were several other unnamed women - on subsequent retellings MM gets synthesized from 5 or 6 women
Peter Dinklage looks nothing like book Tyrion
And on and no

And I agree that the dynamics between book lore and tv adaptation COULD (and does) offer rich discussion
BUT it’s also a Trojan horse that review bombers use to mask their sexism, racism, et al
(tbc I’m not coming anywhere close to painting you with that brush)

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Side note - it should be amusing to people that I'm arguing about holding on to a story from my past, and one of Tolkien's central themes is passage of time, death and change, and the damage that can occur when you try to hold onto something too tightly and not allow it to fade and be replaced with something new.

Also well said
Fiction is not history - the LotR books are on historical record of Tolkien’s writing of the time, but they are not a history of middle earth
And many would agree that he was writing an allegory even though he was vociferous about not writing an allegory (probably bc as a devout Catholic he did not want to seem like he was alluding to Christian faith, even though…)
And while we share ManU of the issues Europe faced between the wars, we have other concerns as well
He also seemed to share his time’s and class’s issue with race and gender and there’s really no compelling reason to port those views forward 100 years

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

Pretty certain it's Saruman.

The problem with this is is totally against canon, as none of the Istari (wizards) arrive until 1000 years into the Third Age (which begans with the initial defeat of Sauron by Isildur / Elrond)

Order of Wizards

The Order of Wizards (Quenya: Heren Istarion), or simply Wizards (Q.: Istari), were a group of Maiar sent to Middle-earth by the Valar in the early Third Age[1] around TA 1050 when the "Necromancer" became active in Dol Guldur.[2] They were embodied as elderly Men and entrusted to aid the Free...

lotr.fandom.com

But I wouldn't put it past the show runners to retcon this.

But that does further complicate why Gandalf didn't appreciate what the One Ring was almost immediately when he first suspected it when Bilbo transferred it to Frodo. Had he been around for the initial forging / gifting, War of the Last Alliance and capturing the ring, surely he wouldn't have had to travel to Minas Tirith to do some research at the Library of Congress to find out. He would have been able to figure it out immediately.

As they're both dead, official canon is set.
Just one item that's egregiously wrong is that Gil-Galad had no right to offer a trip West to anyone. The Valar themselves invited every elf everywhere (except a few whose actions/oaths precluded accepting) to come to Valinor and live there forever.

And it could be that at least some Elves took an oath to not return to Valinor until Gil-Galad granted them leave.

 

[Hoodoo]

Strong possibility that Sauron was in this episode but not meteor man

Not Sauron, Saruman. As leader of the Istari, sent by the Valar to oppose Sauron, he would have been the first.

 

[Hoodoo]

The problem with this is is totally against canon, as none of the Istari (wizards) arrive until 1000 years into the Third Age (which begans with the initial defeat of Sauron by Isildur / Elrond)

Order of Wizards

The Order of Wizards (Quenya: Heren Istarion), or simply Wizards (Q.: Istari), were a group of Maiar sent to Middle-earth by the Valar in the early Third Age[1] around TA 1050 when the "Necromancer" became active in Dol Guldur.[2] They were embodied as elderly Men and entrusted to aid the Free...

lotr.fandom.com

But I wouldn't put it past the show runners to retcon this.

But that does further complicate why Gandalf didn't appreciate what the One Ring was almost immediately when he first suspected it when Bilbo transferred it to Frodo. Had he been around for the initial forging / gifting, War of the Last Alliance and capturing the ring, surely he wouldn't have had to travel to Minas Tirith to do some research at the Library of Congress to find out. He would have been able to figure it out immediately.


And it could be that at least some Elves took an oath to not return to Valinor until Gil-Galad granted them leave.

That makes sense and I definitely could be wrong. My thinking when I saw him, though was how his abilities resembled Gandalf's and since Gandalf wouldn't have been the first that it had to be Saruman before his jealousy of Sauron's power turned him over.

 

[Taurus]

The problem with this is is totally against canon, as none of the Istari (wizards) arrive until 1000 years into the Third Age (which begans with the initial defeat of Sauron by Isildur / Elrond)

Order of Wizards

The Order of Wizards (Quenya: Heren Istarion), or simply Wizards (Q.: Istari), were a group of Maiar sent to Middle-earth by the Valar in the early Third Age[1] around TA 1050 when the "Necromancer" became active in Dol Guldur.[2] They were embodied as elderly Men and entrusted to aid the Free...

lotr.fandom.com

But I wouldn't put it past the show runners to retcon this.

But that does further complicate why Gandalf didn't appreciate what the One Ring was almost immediately when he first suspected it when Bilbo transferred it to Frodo. Had he been around for the initial forging / gifting, War of the Last Alliance and capturing the ring, surely he wouldn't have had to travel to Minas Tirith to do some research at the Library of Congress to find out. He would have been able to figure it out immediately.


And it could be that at least some Elves took an oath to not return to Valinor until Gil-Galad granted them leave.

That would be an important thing to mention. And still not canon.

 

[Scorpius the Allfather]

That makes sense and I definitely could be wrong. My thinking when I saw him, though was how his abilities resembled Gandalf's and since Gandalf wouldn't have been the first that it had to be Saruman before his jealousy of Sauron's power turned him over.

I feel fairly confident that it's not Gandalf at least. Those fireflies died after he used them and he broke someone's ankle so I also doubt that he is a good guy.

 

[Brad Mojo]

Might take me a while to get through this series. I'm the only one in the house watching it. And as the only male in the house l get last dibs on "the big TV". So I am relegated to watching in small doses. Other shows that I watch alone I'll watch on another TV in the house but this one is so visually stunning I'd rather delay watching and see it on the big TV even if it means I have to delay gratification