My case against Jarvis Jones (1 Viewer)

[RazorOye]

Virtually every fan of Jones' only argument is "the production speaks for itself."

is "production" code for "sacks" only? And "virtually every"? I don't think so. Once again, you are playing with statistical terms in very lazy ways to support a point that is otherwise very weak on its own.

I pointed out stats only because I am trying to illustrate that they don't always matter when trying to project.

Your thread is the "case against Jarvis Jones" and it's based on a single stat. So either they matter, and your case here has a shred of merit. Or they don't matter and you're case invalidates itself.

the only rebuttable for his defenders.

No, it's not. "Only"?

You use terms like "always" and "only" and "every" pretty indiscriminately.

Sorry you don't understand the game of football or football analysis.

I am not the most football savvy person on the SSF, this is true. But I know enough that you don't have anything that remotely constitutes "analysis."

And even football analysis falls under general analytical things like statistics and logic and argumentation. I understand all of those pretty well and the critical and research and argumentative skills translate across disciplines, including football.

Sorry you don't understand the game of logic and research and statistics and argumentation and verifiability and reliability and relevance and credibility and any of the other rules that guide "analysis" - football or not

 

[HennessyRob]

No offense, but I doubt the coaching staff will take your information into consideration tonight.

This site is to talk to fellow Who Dat's, not the Coaching Staff.

 

[RazorOye]

Just because an analysis does not make a definitive statement however does not mean it is not analysis.

you use "analysis" like John Clayton uses "Elite Quarterback" when he includes Matt Ryan in his list

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/G2y8Sx4B2Sk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Nightshade]

For some reason I can see this turning into a case against saintaholic a court case that leads to a restraining order that is.

We know you don't like the guy but this is just an unhealthy obsession at this point.


Posted from Saintsreport.com App for Android

 

[St. Geezy]

is "production" code for "sacks" only? And "virtually every"? I don't think so. Once again, you are playing with statistical terms in very lazy ways to support a point that is otherwise very weak on its own.



Your thread is the "case against Jarvis Jones" and it's based on a single stat. So either they matter, and your case here has a shred of merit. Or they don't matter and you're case invalidates itself.



No, it's not. "Only"?

You use terms like "always" and "only" and "every" pretty indiscriminately.



I am not the most football savvy person on the SSF, this is true. But I know enough that you don't have anything that remotely constitutes "analysis."

And even football analysis falls under general analytical things like statistics and logic and argumentation. I understand all of those pretty well and the critical and research and argumentative skills translate across disciplines, including football.

Sorry you don't understand the game of logic and research and statistics and argumentation and verifiability and reliability and relevance and credibility and any of the other rules that guide "analysis" - football or not

I've been on this board a long time and have never once found the need to use the ignore button. Posts like these from you have become a pattern. Not just with me, but with many others on this forum. I won't use the button, but consider this your warning that I probably won't be responding to any more of your posts, so don't waste your time with your long, drawn out rebuttals on me anymore.

Your posts too often have a "forum police" vibe to them.

 

[WhoDat?DrewDat]

Absolutely, and I am not denying that at all.

I like several prospects at 15: Vaccarro, Ansah (likely not there), Rhodes, the WRs, etc. Heck, I even like his teammate, Ogletree, better.

I think something that you are leaving out, about JJ is his play making ability. Like I previously stated, nobody else in this entire draft can completely take over a game like Jarvis can. When there are crucial times in big games, Jarvis constantly steps up and makes plays, something that cant be measured.

I find it interesting that your twisting Jarvis's greatest positive against him. Producing at an elite level when asked is a positive trait, just because he did not run the fastest 40 time does not mean he cant play in the NFL. Such as these 4 examples. Now, granted Jones ranks in the bottom half of my list im just using it as an example. Each player is different so saying they cant make it because of what other players couldn't accomplish is unfair.

Terrell Suggs - 4.84
Tamba Hali - 4.87
Paul Kruger - 5.0
Elvis Dumervile - 4.75

 

[GeaxSaints44]

For some reason I can see this turning into a case against saintaholic a court case that leads to a restraining order that is.

We know you don't like the guy but this is just an unhealthy obsession at this point.


Posted from Saintsreport.com App for Android

This is what I've been trying to say. I'm not AGAINST Jones, or any other pick for that matter. I just feel like too much focus has been placed Jones in a negative sense. What if he's our pick tonight? Will there be threads calling him a bust before he sets foot on the field?

 

[nolafan33]

Nick Fairley, Antonio Coleman, Carlos Dunlap, Marcus Howard, Jamaal Anderson, Willie Evans, and David Pollack

What's really funny is that I would jump at the chance to have Fairley and Dunlap on this team.

The rest of those guys? Coleman was a UDFA, Howard went in the 5th, Evans was a UDFA, and Pollack obviously had a career ending injury. So I'm not sure what they have to do with Jones?

I'm also not sure what exactly the op is trying to say.

 

[Beerman84]

This is all true, and I am glad this thread is somewhat getting back on track.

However I would like to point out, prior to the combine/workout process, Jones was indeed a consensus projected top 5 pick and sat #1 on Mel Kiper's Big Board all season long.

Right, which either makes him a ? and also a potential absurd value. Not saying you're wrong on that, but that comes down to the Saints (or anybody's) evaluation of him on film as to if they want to take the risk.

I get the larger point that "you can't just cite production" as a guarantee, which is true. Jones isn't a guarantee, but I wouldn't avoid him based on the listed players at all.

 

[Beerman84]

I think something that you are leaving out, about JJ is his play making ability. Like I previously stated, nobody else in this entire draft can completely take over a game like Jarvis can. When there are crucial times in big games, Jarvis constantly steps up and makes plays, something that cant be measured.

I find it interesting that your twisting Jarvis's greatest positive against him. Producing at an elite level when asked is a positive trait, just because he did not run the fastest 40 time does not mean he cant play in the NFL. Such as these 4 examples. Now, granted Jones ranks in the bottom half of my list im just using it as an example. Each player is different so saying they cant make it because of what other players couldn't accomplish is unfair.

Terrell Suggs - 4.84
Tamba Hali - 4.87
Paul Kruger - 5.0
Elvis Dumervile - 4.75

Suggs is the guy most often compared to Jones that I've seen. Being explosive in a short area is more important to what these guys do IMO.

 

[St. Geezy]

I think something that you are leaving out, about JJ is his play making ability. Like I previously stated, nobody else in this entire draft can completely take over a game like Jarvis can. When there are crucial times in big games, Jarvis constantly steps up and makes plays, something that cant be measured.

I find it interesting that your twisting Jarvis's greatest positive against him. Producing at an elite level when asked is a positive trait, just because he did not run the fastest 40 time does not mean he cant play in the NFL. Such as these 4 examples. Now, granted Jones ranks in the bottom half of my list im just using it as an example. Each player is different so saying they cant make it because of what other players couldn't accomplish is unfair.

Terrell Suggs - 4.84
Tamba Hali - 4.87
Paul Kruger - 5.0
Elvis Dumervile - 4.75

Here is the thing though:

Suggs: 6-3, 260 (Suggs is also a special case, by the way, as he broke the NCAA sack record with 24)
Hali: 6-3, 275
Kruger: 6-4, 270
Dumervil (4.75 is much faster than 4.92 by the way): 5-11 260
Jones: 6-2, 245

 

[bigcobra]

For the record, I like Jones, and will be happy with him. I just didnt think the thread deserved such a negative reaction. At least this thread provided interesting statistics regarding sack leaders in the SEC. No reason to attack the op. Would people prefer to see more threads with user's mock drafts; or maybe what your cooking tonight, or Tyrann Mathieu's draft party?

 

[St. Geezy]

This is what I've been trying to say. I'm not AGAINST Jones, or any other pick for that matter. I just feel like too much focus has been placed Jones in a negative sense. What if he's our pick tonight? Will there be threads calling him a bust before he sets foot on the field?

The focus is on Jones because he is one of just 2 or 3 guys that seem to be the Saints' pick on most projections.

We're just having a discussion. If you don't want to participate in any pre-draft discussion, then why are you on a football forum on the day of the NFL draft?

 

[tenordas]

This is what I've been trying to say. I'm not AGAINST Jones, or any other pick for that matter. I just feel like too much focus has been placed Jones in a negative sense. What if he's our pick tonight? Will there be threads calling him a bust before he sets foot on the field?

I think those threads are inevitable no matter who we pick, frankly.

I'm sure saintaholic is a pretty safe bet to start the first one if Jones is our pick, though.



As to the original argument, all I can say is it's very lame and reminds me greatly of monkey logic.

For those who aren't acquainted with monkey logic, here's an example:
All fish live in water,
Whales live in water,
Therefore, whales are fish.

In other words, taking one particular piece of information and ignoring everything else to reach a conclusion which is then defended as an intelligently reasoned answer.

 

[whodat42]

stop it. you're reaching.