My case against Jarvis Jones (2 Viewers)

[Beerman84]

This is all true, and I am glad this thread is somewhat getting back on track.

However I would like to point out, prior to the combine/workout process, Jones was indeed a consensus projected top 5 pick and sat #1 on Mel Kiper's Big Board all season long.

Also ... to me, that he dropped from the top 5 is a positive, not a negative IMO. If it were a guy that's been slated to go 15 all along with the ?'s about his limitations, I'd question the upside. With Jones, I see it, potentially, as a chance to steal a top 5 caliber player because he ran a poor time.

There would be risk either way, but at least in this case, if the fears are unfounded then you've probably got a gem.

 

[St. Widge]

I don't think that's necessarily the conclusion he's making; it's more of a counter-point to the hordes of people who make the argument

1) Jarvis Jones had great production
2) SEC SEC SEC SEC!
3) Jarvis Jones will be a great NFL player

1+2 doesn't automatically equal 3. Production doesn't necessarily mean NFL success.

If that's his point, it's blatantly obvious and didn't need a page of hand picked stats to make.

 

[St. Geezy]

I think those threads are inevitable no matter who we pick, frankly.

I'm sure saintaholic is a pretty safe bet to start the first one if Jones is our pick, though.

As to the original argument, all I can say is it's very lame and reminds me greatly of monkey logic.

For those who aren't acquainted with monkey logic, here's an example:
All fish live in water,
Whales live in water,
Therefore, whales are fish.

In other words, taking one particular piece of information and ignoring everything else to reach a conclusion.

I've pointed out other things, but everyone seems focused on just list of names. I get that though, since it takes up most of the post.

I am also concerned with the reports of him not being a hard worker and also the medical and the 40 time.

I certainly did not intend for my post to sound like leading in sacks is a bad thing. I am merely just saying it isn't the end-all be-all.

 

[GeaxSaints44]

The focus is on Jones because he is one of just 2 or 3 guys that seem to be the Saints' pick on most projections.

I completely understand this. Why don't we discuss some potential positives? You're fixated on 40 times, and that bothers me. The 40-yard dash does not necessarily equal production on the field. Dude flat out gets after the QB, and that is exactly what we need.

 

[St. Widge]

I am also concerned with the reports of him not being a hard worker and also the medical.

I've seen you say this before about him not being a hard worker, but I have not seen that written or posted by anyone else. So, where did you get that he is not a hard worker?

 

[WhoDat?DrewDat]

I think those threads are inevitable no matter who we pick, frankly.

I'm sure saintaholic is a pretty safe bet to start the first one if Jones is our pick, though.

As to the original argument, all I can say is it's very lame and reminds me greatly of monkey logic.

For those who aren't acquainted with monkey logic, here's an example:
All fish live in water,
Whales live in water,
Therefore, whales are fish.

In other words, taking one particular piece of information and ignoring everything else to reach a conclusion which is then defended as an intelligently reasoned answer.

lus-un2:

 

[bigcobra]

His size kinda turns me off. Maybe cuz he wore #29 in college. Its like I'm watching Chris Ivory running around.

 

[St. Geezy]

I completely understand this. Why don't we discuss some potential positives? You're fixated on 40 times, and that bothers me. The 40-yard dash does not necessarily equal production on the field. Dude flat out gets after the QB, and that is exactly what we need.

Look, if we pick him, I will instantly become a fan and root for the guy. Quite honestly, I'd hope I was dead wrong on him, and that he does become a sack monster and leader of the defense.

 

[King Puppy]

I've seen you say this before about him not being a hard worker, but I have not seen that written or posted by anyone else. So, where did you get that he is not a hard worker?

I've read a number of places where he's criticized because he takes plays off. Maybe that's what he's getting at.

I never saw that when I watched UGA games, but then again, I'm not in charge of drafting the guy.

 

[WhoDat?DrewDat]

I completely understand this. Why don't we discuss some potential positives? You're fixated on 40 times, and that bothers me. The 40-yard dash does not necessarily equal production on the field. Dude flat out gets after the QB, and that is exactly what we need.

Exactly, im sick of bending his production against him, as if its bad he went out every week and caused havoc. Is he going to win the underwear Olympics? No, hes not the most gifted athlete but a gifted football player. One who was arguably the most dominant player on defense in the NCAA last year.

 

[DMaestro]

I don't think that's necessarily the conclusion he's making; it's more of a counter-point to the hordes of people who make the argument

1) Jarvis Jones had great production
2) SEC SEC SEC SEC!
3) Jarvis Jones will be a great NFL player

1+2 doesn't automatically equal 3. Production doesn't necessarily mean NFL success.

I read it the same way. The primary case for Jones seems to be that he's produced big against elite SEC competition, therefore his lack of notable athleticism shouldn't be a concern. I think the OP did a pretty good job of undercutting that point with some interesting historical stats.

Now maybe there's some "Saintaholic fatigue" at play in this thread, but I've seen far worse OP's. At the very least, he's presented some food for thought.

Quite frankly, Jones at 15 makes me nervous as hell. Then again, so does just about every other likelihood barring Lotulelei, Lane Johnson, and maybe Sheldon Richardson. Therefore I go into tonight's draft feeling both thrilled and terrified.

It's a pretty fun position to be in.

 

[jt21]

For me the tape/skills don't necessarily match the production. If Mel Kiper etc. had never (largely speculatively) ranked this guy as a top-5 overall player before the season, would you rank him as such from watching him? Not so sure many people would.

He does some things in college that he won't necessarily be able to do in the NFL. For example, a lot of his pressure came from just running around tackles. Of course he'll do that in the NFL (would be idiotic to assert that he won't), but odds are he won't be able to do it anywhere close to the degree he did it in college; he's not going to get to face Xavier Nixon or Mizzou's slow, over-matched RT every week.

He's still a clear 1st round guy and I wouldn't be all that disappointed if the Saints drafted him (well, depending on who's available) but wouldn't exactly call him a steal at 15.

 

[GeauxSaints53]

So your argument is that because he was good in college, he won't be good in the pros...

 

[St. Widge]

For me the tape/skills don't necessarily match the production. If Mel Kiper etc. had never (largely speculatively) ranked this guy as a top-5 overall player before the season, would you rank him as such from watching him? Not so sure many people would.

He does some things in college that he won't necessarily be able to do in the NFL. For example, a lot of his pressure came from just running around tackles. Of course he'll do that in the NFL (would be idiotic to assert that he won't), but odds are he won't be able to do it anywhere close to the degree he did it in college; he's not going to get to face Xavier Nixon or Mizzou's slow, over-matched RT every week.

He's still a clear 1st round guy and I wouldn't be all that disappointed if the Saints drafted him (well, depending on who's available) but wouldn't exactly call him a steal at 15.

I can't disagree with any of that. I think he is going to be a solid to good player in the NFL and #15 is probably the right value spot for him. So, taking him there is far from a bad thing. And I would be satisfied with the pick.

At the same point, I'd rather see Mingo fall to #15 and take him. Mingo has far more bust potential, but he also could be a star. Jones I think will be solid, but probably not much better ,if any better ,than Gallette, Butler or Wilson. And, I think what we need on defense is that star that can spark the team and risking a #15 pick is worth that chance. On the other hand, Jones would be solid, but I'd probably rather trade down and get picks to fill more needs and depth issues than to take what is likely to be a solid Rush LB at #15 when we probably already have 3 of those on the roster.

 

[2009ring]

I read it the same way. The primary case for Jones seems to be that he's produced big against elite SEC competition, therefore his lack of notable athleticism shouldn't be a concern. I think the OP did a pretty good job of undercutting that point with some interesting historical stats.

Now maybe there's some "Saintaholic fatigue" at play in this thread, but I've seen far worse OP's. At the very least, he's presented some food for thought.

Quite frankly, Jones at 15 makes me nervous as hell. Then again, so does just about every other likelihood barring Lotulelei, Lane Johnson, and maybe Sheldon Richardson. Therefore I go into tonight's draft feeling both thrilled and terrified.

It's a pretty fun position to be in.

lus-un2:

Great post. The OP was in for trouble the minute he started criticizing the SEC.