NS.. ex-NFL players sue league... It's starting to make sense now (1 Viewer)

[atceagle]

Should they have known? I think they went by what research was saying at the time and that research didn't always agree but is continuing to evolve as technology and science becomes better. Like I said, when I started my career 15 years ago if a kid didn't lose consciousness and they told me they didn't have any symptoms 15 minutes after the hit, then they were allowed to return to the game. That sounds crazy today but that's what the literature told us was ok to do.

Who was in the best position to know? I'd say the researchers that put out the guidelines to follow. Problem was that in the 90's, there were over a dozen guidelines to follow. Now should the NFL have chosen one guideline and force all the teams to follow the same guidelines? Sure and they may have, I don't know if they did or not. And which guidelines of the dozens out there were they to follow?

Should they pay now? I think the NFL and NFLPA came to an agreement with the Legacy Fund to help pay for retired players pre-1993. Over $600 million will go into this fund and over $1 billion for retired players as a whole. As far as if we should have to foot the bill as taxpayers, we already do this in society for those that can not afford care. It shouldn't matter what profession you once had, if you are destitute, you should receive care.

Also, it's not that the medical community didn't know, it's that not everyone agreed. That's how research works.

 

[vizcaya]

PBS Did a good documentary on this subject.

Link:

Football High - Video | FRONTLINE | PBS

 

[FFT22]

Just for clarity, there's a weird glitch in this thread messing with the quotes, I'm not sure how that happened. The above quote wasn't me...I agree with everything in FFT22's post.

Sorry about that

 

[FFT22]

Should they have known? I think they went by what research was saying at the time and that research didn't always agree but is continuing to evolve as technology and science becomes better. Like I said, when I started my career 15 years ago if a kid didn't lose consciousness and they told me they didn't have any symptoms 15 minutes after the hit, then they were allowed to return to the game. That sounds crazy today but that's what the literature told us was ok to do.

I think they cherry picked research that supported policies and procedures in place at the time. This is what they did up until the bitter end.

Who was in the best position to know? I'd say the researchers that put out the guidelines to follow. Problem was that in the 90's, there were over a dozen guidelines to follow. Now should the NFL have chosen one guideline and force all the teams to follow the same guidelines? Sure and they may have, I don't know if they did or not. And which guidelines of the dozens out there were they to follow?

The ones produced by independent organizations, not interest groups.

Should they pay now? I think the NFL and NFLPA came to an agreement with the Legacy Fund to help pay for retired players pre-1993. Over $600 million will go into this fund and over $1 billion for retired players as a whole. As far as if we should have to foot the bill as taxpayers, we already do this in society for those that can not afford care. It shouldn't matter what profession you once had, if you are destitute, you should receive care.

It provided little assistance to many players with long term health concerns until the most recent cba this year.

Also, it's not that the medical community didn't know, it's that not everyone agreed. That's how research works.

That's how research works when an interested party, i.e., the NFL, sponsors it. They come up with conflicting results that call into question the valid results reached by independent medical researchers or they simply ignore the research their own

For example:

Head Injuries News - The New York Times

A 2000 study surveyed 1,090 former N.F.L. players and found more than 60 percent had suffered at least one concussion in their careers and 26 percent had had three or more. Those who had had concussions reported more problems with memory, concentration, speech impediments, headaches and other neurological problems than those who had not, the survey found.

A 2007 study conducted by the University of North Carolina's Center for the Study of Retired Athletes found that of the 595 retired N.F.L. players who recalled sustaining three or more concussions on the football field, 20.2 percent said they had been found to have depression. That is three times the rate of players who have not sustained concussions.

As scrutiny of brain injuries in football players has escalated in the past few years, with prominent professionals reporting cognitive problems and academic studies supporting a link more generally, the N.F.L. and its medical committee on concussions have steadfastly denied the existence of reliable data on the issue.

But in September 2009, a study commissioned by the N.F.L. reported that Alzheimer's disease or similar memory-related diseases appear to have been diagnosed in the league's former players vastly more often than in the national population — including a rate of 19 times the normal rate for men ages 30 through 49.

The study, which was conducted by the University of Michigan's Institute for Social Research, has not been peer-reviewed, but the findings fall into step with several recent independent studies regarding N.F.L. players and the effects of their occupational head injuries.

 

[atceagle]

I think they cherry picked research that supported policies and procedures in place at the time. This is what they did up until the bitter end.



The ones produced by independent organizations, not interest groups.



It provided little assistance to many players with long term health concerns until the most recent cba this year.



That's how research works when an interested party, i.e., the NFL, sponsors it. They come up with conflicting results that call into question the valid results reached by independent medical researchers or they simply ignore the research their own

For example:

Head Injuries News - The New York Times

So what's the answer? Should the NFL go and pay for every player that stepped foot on an NFL practice field whether they played for 1 day or 10 yrs? Keep in mind, research is showing that sub-concussive blows to the head are causing CTE in college athletes that have never had a diagnosed concussion.

The research is changing so much in such short time that Cantu stated up to the early 2000's that it was ok to allow a kid to return to play on the same day he/she suffers a concussion to what he says today that collision sports shouldn't be allowed until a kid reaches 14yrs old. Will we look back 20yrs from now and laugh at ourselves for letting 10yr olds play tackle football? Will pee-wee football and hockey leagues become extinct? It could happen.

 

[Saints Frenzy]

There was sports related brain damage information available many years ago, though more specific studies have been done and much more is known now. In the early eighties, I recall extensive media discussion about the combination punch causing brain damage in boxing. The explanation at the time was that the brain is not secured to the skull. When the head is rapidly turning in one direction and gets popped back in the opposite rotation, the brain twists within the skull causing lesions and tears in the soft connective tissues between them. These wounds leave scar tissue that diminishes the brain's capabilities (cause brain damage). Look at Mohamed Ali. Playing in the NFL is analogous to boxing in many respects. The big "jacked up" hits we love to see cause similar damage. Everybody has known it but they were in denial to keep the status quo going until it became impossible to ignore any longer.

 

[Muncie]

I think they cherry picked research that supported policies and procedures in place at the time. This is what they did up until the bitter end.



The ones produced by independent organizations, not interest groups.



It provided little assistance to many players with long term health concerns until the most recent cba this year.



That's how research works when an interested party, i.e., the NFL, sponsors it. They come up with conflicting results that call into question the valid results reached by independent medical researchers or they simply ignore the research their own

For example:

Head Injuries News - The New York Times

 

[State Of Affairs]

That's not what I meant.

The medical community didn't know everything it knows today, but there was some information coming to light.

The players allege that the NFL knew some things and didn't properly act on them. If that's not true...

Also they are saying in part, that although there was certainly a "legal" right in their contracts to get second opinions, sit down because they didn't know which team they were on or what their name was, etc...that they were, nonetheless coerced to play through injuries. (I don't know about THIS suit, but that's a contention in most of them)

At the very least, even if the NFL knew nothing and the players knew what they were getting into, the NFL should be taking better care of its players after they retire. Healthcare coverage should be complete and unlimited. The NFL is without a doubt rich enough to do so, and it wouldn't have been without those players.

Man... Guys in jail were "coerced" into doing crimes by their friends, gangs and other associates... That didn't make it right... These players made decisions to play in fear of losing there multi million dollar job.. If they were actually coerced, it's still a matter of them taking responsibility for themselves and go get a regular job...

The most important point that many people on this board lose sight of is THESE GUYS DON'T HAVE TO PLAY FOOTBALL... It's not there god given right!!! They can go get another job if they fealt the job was too dangerous...

They chose to play and put themselves at risk...

I understand the culture of pro football.. The pressure to play is huge but it's still your individual responsibility not to jump off the bridge just because your friends do (like my mom use to say)

I do agree that the health care should be MUCH better...

People in normal businesses are coerced into doing illegal things all the time because of huge pressure from others in the business to cover stuff up, turn a blind eye or ignore things but they still go to jail... Peer pressure is not an excuse for making bad decisions.. (not trying to imply playing football is like crime, just making a point.)

This debat is silly... You knowingly put yourself in harms way... PERIOD!!! Now you're trying to grab some more cash... Just because more info is coming out that it's more dangerous then you realize doesn't make it someone else's fault..

 

[chank]

I've eaten so much hot sauce over the years that I cannot even feel the burn from pepper on my tongue any longer. I'm going to have to sue the makers of Tabasco and Louisiana Hot Sauce.

 

[El Caliente]

I've eaten so much hot sauce over the years that I cannot even feel the burn from pepper on my tongue any longer. I'm going to have to sue the makers of Tabasco and Louisiana Hot Sauce.

This is America, you could find an attorney and court and probably win.

 

[saintsfan342000]

So can I sue my school district? Because I suffered 2 concussions in my high school football days, and there are people who have suffered far worse head injuries than I. Class action, maybe.

 

[SaintNashville]

Wow, what a debate. And there are so many great points on both sides. My friend is Kyle Turley. He and his wife and kids just left my house. We were doing some Xmas celebrating. Kyle, my brother, and I all had a long talk about this thread. He has given me permission to share his personal story with you all. I have to put the kids to bed but I'll be updating you guys with some very interesting info shortly.

 

[SaintNashville]

ok well here goes. First off, to the former members of the military and especially those who were injured in combat, thank you for your service to the country. I have the utmost respect for what you guys have done and continue to do for the rest of us. Turley feels the same as I do and he is actually very active in supporting disabled veterans.

As I said, Kyle Turley and I are good friends. He lives nearby me here in Franklin, TN. We've had many conversations about football, inside scoop on Saints stuff, crazy funny stories and what not. Anyway, many of you know Kyle from his helmet throwing days with the Saints. He was also injured pretty badly a few times and is dealing with some of the after-effects of the game currently.

Of course he knew that football is a dangerous sport. He never questioned that he could be severely injured or even be killed due to playing NFL football. However, he was under the impression - as I would imagine most players are - that the team and the team's doctors have the players best interest in mind. I'm sure that is the case in many situations. There are other situations, and in Kyle's case specifically, where it was obvious that the player's best interest were not a consideration.

There are 2 things that happened to Kyle that I would like to share with you all. Both happened while he was with the St Louis Rams. By the way, he never wanted to be traded to St Louis. He had a contract done with Randy Mueller (negotiated by Tom Condon) and it was all but signed. It would have made him a Saint for life. Well, Randy was fired out of the blue and apparently Kyle wasn't in Mickey's plans. So Mickey traded him to the Rams. This is a whole different story of course... Now, on to what happened with the Rams:

The Rams were playing a game against the Packers in St Louis. Sometime in the second half, Kyle was running downfield on a play and was knocked down. As he went to get up, a DB's knee clipped him in the back of his head and knocked his forehead straight into the turf. Everything went black and he was unconscious. The trainers got out to him on the field and woke him up with the ammonia sticks. He was obviously dazed and confused. They were able to get him to the sidelines and sit him down. Everything from that point on is pretty blurry for him. Here's what he remembers. He was sitting on the sideline and people would come up to see if he was ok. He had extreme tunnel vision and everyone looked really warped and surreal when they approached him. He was very disoriented and confused. He was sitting there looking all over the stadium, scanning the box suites for his wife, Stacy. He obviously knew where the suite was - she sat in the same one every game - but he couldn't find her. She commented that she could see him on the bench just looking around...and appearing that he was lost. Finally when there was about a minute left in the game, they had him go to the locker room to get undressed. He had other players coming up to him in there checking on him and most were a blur but he remembers Marshall Faulk coming up to him, who he played with at SD State and was a long time friend...the players seemed concerned because he obviously wasn't himself. At some point, the owner Georgia Frontiere came in. Kyle doesn't remember this but was told by several people...he gave Georgia a big bear hug and was like "Geoooorgiiaaa" haha. Um...funny part is he wasn't exactly dressed appropriately at the time. I'll just leave it at that. Anyway, some time after that they brought Stacy in and just said, "well you can take him to the hospital if you want or just take him home and let him get some rest." They turned him over to Stacy at this point. Stacy was walking him out the tunnel and they ran into Joe Johnson. Joe and Kyle were good friends - as many of you know Joe was traded from the Saints to the Packers. Joe was extremely concerned when he saw the condition that Kyle was in. He implored Stacy to get him to the hospital immediately. As Stacy was trying to get through throngs of people and get to their car, Kyle could barely walk. She is practically carrying a 300lb NFL player through crowds of people when they ran into a police officer. The policeman put them in his squad car and rushed Kyle to the hospital. He was treated at the hospital and was kept there for 2 days!! Upon leaving the hospital, he reported for work the following day. He was having extreme migraines and other concussion symptoms. The doctors and/or trainers asked him if he had any problems and if he could go. He explained his symptoms and yet they encouraged him to get back and practice if he felt he could go. So, being a good teammate, he manned up and got back to work. Not knowing that the secondary trauma that he would be putting his brain through could have very dire consequences for him down the road. As some of you have pointed out, the research being done has proven that people who return to football too soon after having a grade 3 concussion can be severely disabled or even killed. It's this secondary trauma that, from what I'm led to believe, can be extremely damaging to the brain. There are links to alzheimers, ALS (Steve Gleason), and other degenerative and/or fatal diseases as a result of this type of trauma. What is of grave concern in regards to this story are the following: (1) Kyle had an obvious grade 3 concussion. (2) the team doctors/trainers were aware of this. (3) They neglected to take him to the hospital themselves immediately - they left him on the field, then turned him over to his wife to assist him which she was physically incapable of doing. (4) 3 days after suffering this type of injury, they had him playing again. (5) There was medical knowledge available at the time which requires a patient with this type of an injury to sit for at least 30 days without further contact, allowing the brain to heal. (6) The secondary trauma he received as the result of returning to work so soon could be very detrimental to his health and possibly kill him. (7) In this were any other industry, a doctor could very likely be sued for malpractice for allowing him to return to work while still experiencing effects of a concussion.

The second injury also took place with the Rams. Kyle had a back injury that required surgery. I believe it was a herniated disk. He had the surgery and, after 4 months, was asked to return to practice. He didn't feel that he was capable but, again, didn't want to be a wuss so he "manned up". After one practice, he told the doctors that he couldn't push off/ get leverage like he normally could. They told him to trust the surgery and get back on the field. He would be fine. During the 3rd practice, he reherniated the same disk. He was placed on IR, then cut, and the remainder of his contract...and the millions of dollars left on it, were cancelled. He had to have surgery again and was forced to sign on with KC at the league minimum. He played there for 2 years and had some shining moments on the team, but obviously he wasn't the same player he was before the 2 back surgeries and could no longer continue playing. Now, here's the shocking part. After the first surgery, there were several simple tests that could have been done to make sure that he was capable of returning to play. I don't remember all of them, but one test was to simply to arch your foot up towards the ceiling. The doctor pushes down and you have to try to keep your foot pointed up. The Rams never did any of these tests with Kyle. Nor did they go through the proper steps to rebuild the core muscles in his back and/or give his back the appropriate time to heal. In doing so, they sent him back into the trenches unprepared, only to have his back blown out again, his contract cancelled and left without a job. In my opinion, it seems pretty obvious that the negligence of the Rams and their doctors was directly responsible for Kyle's inability to continue working. There is a great deal more specific info that I'm leaving out here, but I would be sitting here for the next hour or two writing.

You can debate that players know what they are getting into. And you can debate that players are overpaid. But if a team knows that they can do something to protect a player's long term health after a very serious injury like a grade 3 concussion and they choose not to, there should be some accountability for that. Likewise, if the team doctors fail to take the most basic procedural steps to rehab a player after an injury and rush their "asset" back onto the field despite the risk of further career ending injuries, the team and their doctors should be held accountable for that.

I hope I was able to shed some light from one player's perspective. Sorry, I'm not a doctor and have tried to translate the information that I've been told by Kyle directly to you guys. Please take any medical info above with a grain of salt. You can also check out Nonprofit NFL football charity ? Gridiron Greats Assistance Fund (GGAF) which is an organization that Kyle is hooked up with. They are trying to bring awareness to Kyle's story and many others like his. By the way, many of you already know but KT loves New Orleans and the Saints fans. I'm trying to get him down to a game with me in my section, 281. When he does, we're going to bring a bunch of mini "Jets" helmets that Kyle will be giving out to all the Saints fans!

 

[SaintNashville]

Correct. As I stated in my post, they can REQUEST to get a second opinion, but can't just go out on their OWN. They have to consult with the Team Doctor first.

Sorry I wasn't clear on that.

Kyle said the same thing. You can go to an outside doctor but it is very much discouraged. Or at least it was with him - when he was on the Rams. He was told that he had the best doctors, who were specially trained to help NFL athletes, that could do a much more thorough job than these "outside" doctors.

 

[Rugger]

MN great read. There is nothing like getting a person's perspective first hand. I appreciate you sharing his story. Tell Kyle to rock on and best wishes and good health in the future. Also telling him that if he would have aimed his throw better after the last game that season, I would have had his helmet. My seats were right over the tunnel that they enter and exit pre/post game.