Ryan Clark Calls Sean Payton a Thug (1 Viewer)

[BreesusSaves]

The only categories he was THAT much better in was efficiency with the TD to INT ratio. And since he was throwing the ball HALF as much as he was in Tampa Bay...that should be expected (and was probably by design from Payton.) Based on Winston's per-game numbers between here and when he was in Tampa Bay, Payton seemed to have him on a short leash. He either didn't trust him or he was still trying to figure out his strengths/weaknesses. However, since Payton only had Winston for a total of 8 games, it's too small of a window to fully know that answer imo. Could he have kept up attempting only 16 passes per game? Possibly...but unlikely. First, the teams they played during that stretch had a combined 10-9 record so it's a luxury they could afford. Secondly, the lowest attempts per game that season were by Seattle with 29...almost twice that (highest was Tampa Bay with 49.)

The numbers below are based on per-game averages at Tampa Bay and under Payton in New Orleans. As you can see, Winston was only attempting half the passes per game that he did in Tampa Bay.

	Comp %	Att	Comp	Yards	TD	INT
Bucs	61.6	35	22	274	1.7	1
Saints/Payton	61.3	16	9	155	1.2	.3

So you can't deny Winston was incredibly efficient with Payton. You can't deny the Saints were winning with Winston and Payton. And all you can do is speculate to what ifs. Neat.

 

[UFCSaint]

So you can't deny Winston was incredibly efficient with Payton. You can't deny the Saints were winning with Winston and Payton. And all you can do is speculate to what ifs. Neat.

I get it...math is hard. Have a good day

 

[BreesusSaves]

I get it...math is hard. Have a good day

You admit in your own post all you can do is speculate

 

[UFCSaint]

You admit in your own post all you can do is speculate

The only thing I am speculating is if this was a waste of my time

 

[BreesusSaves]

The only thing I am speculating is if this was a waste of my time

Well you do enjoy speculating.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

The only categories he was THAT much better in was efficiency with the TD to INT ratio. And since he was throwing the ball HALF as much as he was in Tampa Bay...that should be expected (and was probably by design from Payton.) Based on Winston's per-game numbers between here and when he was in Tampa Bay, Payton seemed to have him on a short leash. He either didn't trust him or he was still trying to figure out his strengths/weaknesses. However, since Payton only had Winston for a total of 8 games, it's too small of a window to fully know that answer imo. Could he have kept up attempting only 16 passes per game? Possibly...but unlikely. First, the teams they played during that stretch had a combined 10-9 record so it's a luxury they could afford. Secondly, the lowest attempts per game that season were by Seattle with 29...almost twice that (highest was Tampa Bay with 49.)

The numbers below are based on per-game averages at Tampa Bay and under Payton in New Orleans. As you can see, Winston was only attempting half the passes per game that he did in Tampa Bay.

	Comp %	Att	Comp	Yards	TD	INT
Bucs	61.6	35	22	274	1.7	1
Saints/Payton	61.3	16	9	155	1.2	.3

Not sure how you're calculating his Saints/Payton numbers. I think the only thing that should count is the 6 full games he played in 2021, as he got injured halfway through the 7th game

When I do this I get totals of

	Comp %	Att	Comp	Yards	TD	INT
Saints/Payton	58.9	151	89	1114	13	3

Which gives averages of

	Comp %	Att	Comp	Yards	TD	INT
Saints/Payton	58.9	25.1	14.8	185.6	2.2	0.5

Which projects on a 16 game season to ~3000 yards and 34 TDs (with 16 INTs)

His passer rating was over 100 meaning he was very efficient.

It might have been the season like Roehtlisberger had in 2007, where he only tossed for 3200 yards, but had 32 TDs to 11 INTs

 

[UFCSaint]

Not sure how you're calculating his Saints/Payton numbers. I think the only thing that should count is the 6 full games he played in 2021, as he got injured halfway through the 7th game

When I do this I get totals of

	Comp %	Att	Comp	Yards	TD	INT
Saints/Payton	58.9	151	89	1114	13	3

Which gives averages of

	Comp %	Att	Comp	Yards	TD	INT
Saints/Payton	58.9	25.1	14.8	185.6	2.2	0.5

Which projects on a 16 game season to ~3000 yards and 34 TDs (with 16 INTs)

His passer rating was over 100 meaning he was very efficient.

It might have been the season like Roehtlisberger had in 2007, where he only tossed for 3200 yards, but had 32 TDs to 11 INTs

Well I did throw out the game he got injured in, but for argument's sake let's also throw out the game he came in for an injured Brees. That takes his per-game average to:

15/25 comp/attempt at 60%. 2.2 TDs against .5 INts. 186 yards per game. So the average is actually worse. Does that help your argument?

 

[No2DC]

 

[SWJJ]

SP is in love with Caleb Williams. Don’t be surprised if they do a blockbuster trade for the Bears #1 pick.

Do they have enough compensation to go get him?

As it sits Denver is 14th. Denver Doesn't have a second this year.

It would probably take the 14 pick plus 2 future firsts and a second.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

Well I did throw out the game he got injured in, but for argument's sake let's also throw out the game he came in for an injured Brees. That takes his per-game average to:

15/25 comp/attempt at 60%. 2.2 TDs against .5 INts. 186 yards per game. So the average is actually worse. Does that help your argument?

I was only arguing stats, not conclusions

A QB being efficient is important.

It may not mean he could win a shootout where he had to throw 400 yards and put up 35+ points without making too many mistakes like Brees could. But the team had changed identity by that point anyway. Other than Thomas and Kamara, we did not have some super high octane offense. Brees would rarely throw for 300+. And we won plenty of games with him throwing < 200. One time he threw a whopping 63 yards and we still won

 

[UFCSaint]

I was only arguing stats, not conclusions

A QB being efficient is important.

It may not mean he could win a shootout where he had to throw 400 yards and put up 35+ points without making too many mistakes like Brees could. But the team had changed identity by that point anyway. Other than Thomas and Kamara, we did not have some super high octane offense. Brees would rarely throw for 300+. And we won plenty of games with him throwing < 200. One time he threw a whopping 63 yards and we still won

Most logical response yet

 

[jahsoul357]

Well I did throw out the game he got injured in, but for argument's sake let's also throw out the game he came in for an injured Brees. That takes his per-game average to:

15/25 comp/attempt at 60%. 2.2 TDs against .5 INts. 186 yards per game. So the average is actually worse. Does that help your argument?

This kinds goes to what I was talking about when I was saying that people really weren't paying attention to that season.

First 3 games:
21 attempts per game
129 YPG/60.3 (68.2% adjusted for drops)/7TDs/2INTs
Per 17 - 2193 yard/40TDs/11INT

Next 3 games:
29 attempts per game
242YPG/58% (64% adjusted for drops)/6TD/1INT
Per 17 - 4120 yards/34TDs/6INTs

Game vs Bucs:
Jameis had 13 drop backs (10 pass attempts/3 scrambles) in the 1st quarter alone.

It seems like we miss that the offense had to be implemented during the season due to the fact that there was a QB battle during the offseason. This is what tipped me off to something going on in Denver. Russ and CSP had all offseason and the offense looked the same.

 

[Doug B]

Winston was still learning with Payton throughout his 2021 starts. One thing that's instructive is to look at Brees' 2006-08 passer rating and QBR -- during which he has said he was still working to master the offense -- and then compare those figures to Winston's 2021. Obviously Winston's sample size from 6 1/2 games was much smaller, but I think the similarities are telling:

2006 Brees: 96.3 passer rating, 66.7 QBR
2007 Brees: 89.4, 64.6
2008 Brees: 96.2, 65.7

2021 Winston: 102.8, 64.4

Those numbers are still Winston's career-high passer rating, and his second-best QBR by a hair. Devin White robbed the Saints from ever finding out what was possible with Winston at QB -- and early returns were promising.

As for Brees after 2008 -- once he felt like he mastered Payton's offense -- he took a clear statistical step forward. In 2009, his numbers jumped to a 109.6 passer rating and an 82.0 QBR -- and the Saints won a Super Bowl. Also, 2009 would be the first of nine seasons in which Brees would achieve a passer rating over 100.

Drew Brees Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Drew Brees. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

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Jameis Winston Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Jameis Winston. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

 

[sfidc3]

Teddy Bridgewater was 5-1 as a starter. Taysom Hill is 7-2. Should either of those be a full time starter? See? It's easy to cherry pick!

Except both Bridgewater (who did wind up starting for 2 different teams after he left the Saints) and Hill were backups.....CSP made JW the starter, see the difference? Totally nonsensical comparison.....cherry pick my arse....

Well I did throw out the game he got injured in, but for argument's sake let's also throw out the game he came in for an injured Brees. That takes his per-game average to:

15/25 comp/attempt at 60%. 2.2 TDs against .5 INts. 186 yards per game. So the average is actually worse. Does that help your argument?

Context matters, JW was improving as the season went on in nearly all categories, the last 3 games he was averaging nearly 250 yds per game and 6 TD's against 1 INT.....but I'm sure CSP wouldn't have put up with much more of that.....you haven't made a decent argument yet to back up your ridiculous assertion.....

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

Moral of the story gents...never let an opportunity to sheet on Jameis go to waste.