Shooter incident at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas - 19 children and 2 adults dead (4 Viewers)

The recent report on the Uvalde, Tex., school shooting persuasively recounts “systemic failures and egregious poor decision making” by law enforcement during the response.

But Uvalde raises a broader question about policing in America:

How is it possible that we have so many instances of police being overly aggressive and unnecessarily violent, yet police in Uvalde failed to act with the decisiveness and force necessary to save lives?


The answer involves a paradox.

We rely too heavily on policing to do too many things, which means that our system under-protects even as it over-polices.


The disastrous response at Robb Elementary cannot be explained away as the fault of a particularly bad police department. Twenty-three agencies, from every level of government, responded: municipal, county, state, federal, school and fire; in total, there were 376 law enforcement officers on the scene.

The report found that none of the agencies followed active-shooter protocols, meaning all the officers stood by for too long, while children and their teachers might have bled to death.

Meanwhile, the sheer number of agencies and officers likely contributed to the failure to establish a clear chain of command, resulting in “chaos.”

As the report put it: “We must not delude ourselves into a false sense of security by believing that ‘this would not happen where we live.’ ”

Rather, Uvalde offers a dramatic illustration of the gap between the rhetoric and the reality of American policing. “Police officers see danger and run to meet it, knowing the cost and stepping forward to pay it,” the report states at the outset — and then proceeds to contradict this lofty assertion……

Long before Uvalde, there have been complaints that even when on-scene, police do not always intervene to prevent ongoing assaults.

Indeed, in a 2005 case, Castle Rock v. Gonzales, the Supreme Court explicitly excused police who failed to perform their central duty — intervening to prevent violence.

In Castle Rock, Jessica Gonzales sued police for failing to enforce a restraining order, resulting in the murder of her three young daughters by her estranged husband.

The court ruled that the restraining order did not constitute the “property interest” necessary to create a police duty to protect.

Thus, alongside opinions facilitating police violence, the court has given the police permission to do nothing, arguably even in school shootings such as the one in Uvalde…..

 
Last edited:
The recent report on the Uvalde, Tex., school shooting persuasively recounts “systemic failures and egregious poor decision making” by law enforcement during the response.

But Uvalde raises a broader question about policing in America:

How is it possible that we have so many instances of police being overly aggressive and unnecessarily violent, yet police in Uvalde failed to act with the decisiveness and force necessary to save lives?


The answer involves a paradox.

We rely too heavily on policing to do too many things, which means that our system under-protects even as it over-polices.


The disastrous response at Robb Elementary cannot be explained away as the fault of a particularly bad police department. Twenty-three agencies, from every level of government, responded: municipal, county, state, federal, school and fire; in total, there were 376 law enforcement officers on the scene.

The report found that none of the agencies followed active-shooter protocols, meaning all the officers stood by for too long, while children and their teachers might have bled to death.

Meanwhile, the sheer number of agencies and officers likely contributed to the failure to establish a clear chain of command, resulting in “chaos.”

As the report put it: “We must not delude ourselves into a false sense of security by believing that ‘this would not happen where we live.’ ”

Rather, Uvalde offers a dramatic illustration of the gap between the rhetoric and the reality of American policing. “Police officers see danger and run to meet it, knowing the cost and stepping forward to pay it,” the report states at the outset — and then proceeds to contradict this lofty assertion……

Long before Uvalde, there have been complaints that even when on-scene, police do not always intervene to prevent ongoing assaults.

Indeed, in a 2005 case, Castle Rock v. Gonzales, the Supreme Court explicitly excused police who failed to perform their central duty — intervening to prevent violence.

In Castle Rock, Jessica Gonzales sued police for failing to enforce a restraining order, resulting in the murder of her three young daughters by her estranged husband.

The court ruled that the restraining order did not constitute the “property interest” necessary to create a police duty to protect.

Thus, alongside opinions facilitating police violence, the court has given the police permission to do nothing, arguably even in school shootings such as the one in Uvalde…..

The whole concept of policing needs to be revamped from the ground up. Cops shouldn't be social workers or medical professionals. They're supposed to protect the public from violence and handle emergencies and life threatening accidents. But they're expected to be mediators and deal with people who are mentally ill where a medical professional would be better equipped to handle. I don't think it's the cops' job to fix dysfunctional neighborhoods. That's the job of the people who live there imo. Cops aren't and shouldn't be social workers. The "Protect and Serve" motto doesn't really mean a whole lot right now.

It has to be torn down to the studs and re-made. But, unfortunately, I don't see how it happens.
 
The whole concept of policing needs to be revamped from the ground up. Cops shouldn't be social workers or medical professionals. They're supposed to protect the public from violence and handle emergencies and life threatening accidents. But they're expected to be mediators and deal with people who are mentally ill where a medical professional would be better equipped to handle. I don't think it's the cops' job to fix dysfunctional neighborhoods. That's the job of the people who live there imo. Cops aren't and shouldn't be social workers. The "Protect and Serve" motto doesn't really mean a whole lot right now.

It has to be torn down to the studs and re-made. But, unfortunately, I don't see how it happens.
Agree, but at the same time, they need to be taught how to handle situations with mentally ill or incapacitated people because they run in to those situations quite often.
 
The recent report on the Uvalde, Tex., school shooting persuasively recounts “systemic failures and egregious poor decision making” by law enforcement during the response.

But Uvalde raises a broader question about policing in America:

How is it possible that we have so many instances of police being overly aggressive and unnecessarily violent, yet police in Uvalde failed to act with the decisiveness and force necessary to save lives?


The answer involves a paradox.

We rely too heavily on policing to do too many things, which means that our system under-protects even as it over-polices.


The disastrous response at Robb Elementary cannot be explained away as the fault of a particularly bad police department. Twenty-three agencies, from every level of government, responded: municipal, county, state, federal, school and fire; in total, there were 376 law enforcement officers on the scene.

The report found that none of the agencies followed active-shooter protocols, meaning all the officers stood by for too long, while children and their teachers might have bled to death.

Meanwhile, the sheer number of agencies and officers likely contributed to the failure to establish a clear chain of command, resulting in “chaos.”

As the report put it: “We must not delude ourselves into a false sense of security by believing that ‘this would not happen where we live.’ ”

Rather, Uvalde offers a dramatic illustration of the gap between the rhetoric and the reality of American policing. “Police officers see danger and run to meet it, knowing the cost and stepping forward to pay it,” the report states at the outset — and then proceeds to contradict this lofty assertion……

Long before Uvalde, there have been complaints that even when on-scene, police do not always intervene to prevent ongoing assaults.

Indeed, in a 2005 case, Castle Rock v. Gonzales, the Supreme Court explicitly excused police who failed to perform their central duty — intervening to prevent violence.

In Castle Rock, Jessica Gonzales sued police for failing to enforce a restraining order, resulting in the murder of her three young daughters by her estranged husband.

The court ruled that the restraining order did not constitute the “property interest” necessary to create a police duty to protect.

Thus, alongside opinions facilitating police violence, the court has given the police permission to do nothing, arguably even in school shootings such as the one in Uvalde…..

To put more simply - like us - they are over aggressive when they have power and much more timid when they don’t
Which is what training should be used to adjust on both sides
 
The recent report on the Uvalde, Tex., school shooting persuasively recounts “systemic failures and egregious poor decision making” by law enforcement during the response.

But Uvalde raises a broader question about policing in America:

How is it possible that we have so many instances of police being overly aggressive and unnecessarily violent, yet police in Uvalde failed to act with the decisiveness and force necessary to save lives?

...
It's because they're not the badass cops we see in the movies.

They act more like the classroom bullies we see in movies.

Bullies don't pick on everyone equally. They rarely target the popular kids.

They go after the kids who are already at a disadvantage because of how they look or how poor they are.

So when someone steps up and matches their toxic energy, they lose their sheet and don't know how to respond.

Civilians think they're getting John McClane, but all they get is Farkus from A Christmas Story.

No one would be surprised if a stat suggested most school bullies grew up to be cops.
 
Agree, but at the same time, they need to be taught how to handle situations with mentally ill or incapacitated people because they run in to those situations quite often.
I do believe they get that training. It's probably limited considering all of the training they have to do. No idea if there is ongoing annual training or whatever, so idk if it's sufficient. I do think part of the problem is a culture issue as much as training.
 
It's because they're not the badass cops we see in the movies.

They act more like the classroom bullies we see in movies.

Bullies don't pick on everyone equally. They rarely target the popular kids.

They go after the kids who are already at a disadvantage because of how they look or how poor they are.

So when someone steps up and matches their toxic energy, they lose their sheet and don't know how to respond.

Civilians think they're getting John McClane, but all they get is Farkus from A Christmas Story.

No one would be surprised if a stat suggested most school bullies grew up to be cops.

I think there is a lot of truth to this…
 
It's because they're not the badass cops we see in the movies.

They act more like the classroom bullies we see in movies.

Bullies don't pick on everyone equally. They rarely target the popular kids.

They go after the kids who are already at a disadvantage because of how they look or how poor they are.

So when someone steps up and matches their toxic energy, they lose their sheet and don't know how to respond.

Civilians think they're getting John McClane, but all they get is Farkus from A Christmas Story.

No one would be surprised if a stat suggested most school bullies grew up to be cops.
Some of that is correct for a lot of cops. But there are a lot of other cops out there that wouldn't have hesitated to enter that classroom. A lot of them have experienced live fire combat in the middle east so one guy in a classroom doesn't intimidate them very much. We have to be careful not to condemn all police because of the actions of some. It's a necessary institution and more effort needs to be made to weed out the ones that perform like those in Uvalde.
 
Some of that is correct for a lot of cops. But there are a lot of other cops out there that wouldn't have hesitated to enter that classroom. A lot of them have experienced live fire combat in the middle east so one guy in a classroom doesn't intimidate them very much. We have to be careful not to condemn all police because of the actions of some. It's a necessary institution and more effort needs to be made to weed out the ones that perform like those in Uvalde.
You'd be weeding and re-weeding until the end of time.
 
You'd be weeding and re-weeding until the end of time.
Not unlike all occupations. Do you think every soldier/sailor/airman is altruistic? Should we tear down all of the DoD? It's a process, and it won't ever be completed if we never start.
 
Not unlike all occupations. Do you think every soldier/sailor/airman is altruistic? Should we tear down all of the DoD? It's a process, and it won't ever be completed if we never start.
I think it's useless to go around telling everyone you'd have a nice lawn if not for the weeds.

Just admit you have a crappy yard.
 
I think it's useless to go around telling everyone you'd have a nice lawn if not for the weeds.

Just admit you have a crappy yard.
Better to just sit on your porch and complain about your yard? Or pave it over? Maybe get your hands dirty and weed, cultivate, water your yard to make it better. This improves it's value and the neighbor's value as well. And if the entire neighborhood gets in on the act, everyone benefits. Before you know it, people are picking up litter on the sidewalk for no other reason than to make the city more presentable.
 
From that Washington Post article:

"dramatic illustration of the gap between the rhetoric and the reality of American policing"

We can take that same bolded phrase and apply it to so many issues we're facing right now; problems across all facets of human life, where we're sold a bill of goods that does not live up to promises or expectations.

So, what is the solution? Turn cynicism up so high we're miserable to be around and make no progress? Call out the obvious liars and cheats and hold them accountable? Lower expectations to the point of numbness?

Right now, IMO, we are putting law enforcement in a no-win situation. We flood the market with military-grade weapons, available to any untrained, unhinged individual, only thinking of consequences when the inevitable occurs. Then the Monday morning quarterbacking begins.

You cannot expect the police, teachers, or any other one group to solve society's problem. We as voters have the responsibility to collectively choose thoughtfulness and common sense over greed. Reality over rhetoric. (Greed buys a lot of rhetoric.)
:(

I don't think I saw it posted yet in this thread, but there were dozens of lock down alarms at Robb Elementary in the months leading up to the shooting. Police chases and people ditching cars near the school (but never actually entering the school) was the norm! How many other schools are in neighborhoods where this happens? (Sometimes being at the end of a cul-de-sac is not a good thing.) If we see patterns like this, we need to decide which is the greater threat and make adjustments not assumptions.
 
Better to just sit on your porch and complain about your yard? Or pave it over? Maybe get your hands dirty and weed, cultivate, water your yard to make it better. This improves it's value and the neighbor's value as well. And if the entire neighborhood gets in on the act, everyone benefits. Before you know it, people are picking up litter on the sidewalk for no other reason than to make the city more presentable.
So go do all of that THEN come back and tell me how great your yard is.

Until then, I'll make observations and commentary about its current condition.
 
So go do all of that THEN come back and tell me how great your yard is.

Until then, I'll make observations and commentary about its current condition.
But, we're talking about your yard as well. If the whole neighborhood takes care of their yard and you don't, what do you think happens? Your neighbor has an emaculate lawn, but no one wants to live next to a dump....devalued. My point is that this isn't something just one or two of us can solve as long as there are others that don't give a damn or are enabling it. And inaction is the same as enabling. We have a long hard road ahead of us, full of pot holes, if we just take care of them as we go, by time we reach the end and look back at it, everything will be improved.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Users who are viewing this thread

    Back
    Top Bottom