Ukraine (15 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

My only advice to Prigozhin... don't go into any tall buildings in Belarus.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

So, if another 150-200,000 thousand Ru soldiers, pilots, special forces members get killed or wounded, or permanently maimed over the next year or so, it'll still barely make anything more then a ripple or a mild disruption among most Russians living in major population areas, cities like Sochi, St. Petersburg, or Moscow?

I don't know how Putin or any of the other Russian oligarchs trying to defend or argue this invasion was successful or morally/ethically justified. This isn't like other past disastrous wars like Napoleon's 1812 Grande Armee invasion or Hitler's bloody, violent, apocalyptic racial/ethnic genocidal war like Operation Barbarossa and the Great Patriotic War. Russia wasnt invaded or personally attacked by a foreign power. If anything, this is more akin to near-decade long Soviet military intervention in Afghanistan and thats where the Red Army was bled, slowly to death.

Because they (supporters of the war) don’t think in terms of moral outrage but in terms of geopolitics. They see it as pushing back against primarily the US and to a lesser extent the UK. In a sense they feel they were “forced“ to invade. I’m not talking about your average Russian but more like the upper caste, although the view Is probably not that uncommon with the average man on the street who pays attention. As KiwiSaint attested with the taxi driver. And it’s more common in the older generation.

And yes, if 250k Russians have to die to accomplish the vague goals set out by Putin, it’s a cost they’re willing to pay. From their perspective, mostly people who dont contribute much to the Russian economy anywaym which is mostly petroleum and raw materials export and some agriculture. You don’t need a lot of people for that, and the subset you need can be protected.

It is a very old school mentality. Not necessarily Nazism, but more like 19th-early 20th century nationalism and balance of power politics. Not all that different than how many European and even Americans thought during that time.

 

[Saintman2884]

Because they (supporters of the war) don’t think in terms of moral outrage but in terms of geopolitics. They see it as pushing back against primarily the US and to a lesser extent the UK. In a sense they feel they were “forced“ to invade. I’m not talking about your average Russian but more like the upper caste, although the view Is probably not that uncommon with the average man on the street who pays attention. As KiwiSaint attested with the taxi driver. And it’s more common in the older generation.

And yes, if 250k Russians have to die to accomplish the vague goals set out by Putin, it’s a cost they’re willing to pay. From their perspective, mostly people who dont contribute much to the Russian economy anywaym which is mostly petroleum and raw materials export and some agriculture. You don’t need a lot of people for that, and the subset you need can be protected.

It is a very old school mentality. Not necessarily Nazism, but more like 19th-early 20th century nationalism and balance of power politics. Not all that different than how many European and even Americans thought during that time.

Imagine if most Americans held these same views or beliefs about the legitimacy or the moral/ethical reasons for bombing North Vietnamese cities, towns, villages, dams, no calls from left-wing, British/French philosophers like Bertrand Russell, or Jean-Paul Sartre in bringing America before War Crimes tribunals for war crimes atrocities, unjustified mass killings, bombing against civilians, using herbicides that poison water, ground, trees, forests and crops like Agent Orange? I suppose most Russians wouldn't have batted an eye meanwhile, the rest of the civilized world CALLS US murderers, savages, and despotic imperialists for military or political decisions in Vietnam, Cambodia, Grenada, South Africa, or the Middle East.

It took us nearly a decade for to have 58,000+ soldiers dead and wounded in Vietnam, we never suffered 1/3th of those casualties fighting in both Iraq and Afghanistan over two decades and in the case of Vietnam, most Americans were screaming bloody murder to withdraw most or all US combat troops after NVA's Tet Offensive in January 1968.

In terms of public opinion reacting to late 19th/early 20th century European balance of power/pre-WWII European nationalism reacting soberly or subtly not being too enraged by their involvement in foreign wars, to a point, you're right, but certain wars(like the Second Anglo-Boer War from 1899-1902, Russia in the Crimean War, even the American Civil War) had severe, nasty blowback in terms of vicious parts of public opinion opposing the wars themselves, Pres. Lincoln likely wouldn't gotten re-elected in 1864 if Sherman, Grant hadn't captured Atlanta, most of Georgia, militarily splitting the Confederacy in half. For the first couple of years after Boer War started, most of public opinion in Europe was against British involvement, large percentages of British public opposed the Boer War, many leading Liberal/Labour, even Tory politicians openly rooted for the Boers almost like they wanted their own nation to lose. Lincoln even wrote in his personal diary in August 1864 that his re-election defeat looked "increasingly likely" because from that particular point in time, Northern victory looked uncertain, and Lincoln's Democratic opponent, George McClellan, swore that if he were elected, he'd call for an immediate end to the Civil War.

And UK mightve lost the Boer War if they hadn't decided to get nasty, take off the gloves, and stop pretending South Africa was a "gentlemen's war", Lord Kitchener mandated a policy of burning white Afrikaner farms and settlements, forcibly uproot hundreds of thousands of white, black, and Indian South Africans in internment camps under strict, military supervision where disease, malnutrition, hunger, abuse and neglect, ANF sometimes physical and psychological beatings, sexual assaults and rape.

 

[0rion]

The ending of the coup is right up there with the better call Saul series finale.

 

[BigFrosty]

 

[Sailorsaint]

Good news. Replace one unqualified guy with an even more unqualified guy.

 

[Cage1]

Took me forever to catch up on this thread after missing Friday.

I’ve been reading that Putin may go after those that wavered in their loyalty, but those included a lot of military and police forces. It might be difficult since they are the enforcers of his authoritarian rule.

That was my first thought. Okay, Prigo gets to live out the rest of his week-long life in Belarus, but what about all those checkpoints who waved them through and these organizations who declared support?

 

[DaveXA]

If people weren't dying

That was my first thought. Okay, Prigo gets to live out the rest of his week-long life in Belarus, but what about all those checkpoints who waved them through and these organizations who declared support?

The only thing I can think of is the ones letting them through thought they were friendlies. After all, Wagner has been fighting alongside the Russiand for a while now and they were waving the Russian flag and wearing Russia patches.

So...idk how you decide who was acting against Putin and who just didn't know what was going on.

 

[Bobario]

The only thing I can think of is the ones letting them through thought they were friendlies. After all, Wagner has been fighting alongside the Russiand for a while now and they were waving the Russian flag and wearing Russia patches.

So...idk how you decide who was acting against Putin and who just didn't know what was going on.

If you were say 32 blokes manning a checkpoint and 25 to 35 thousand of the most battle hardened troops Russia could field came through would you really leave the barrier down and say no you can't come through.

 

[DaveXA]

If you were say 32 blokes manning a checkpoint and 25 to 35 thousand of the most battle hardened troops Russia could field came through would you really leave the barrier down and say no you can't come through.

Of course not, but the question remains, did they do so thinking they were friendlies or opposed to Putin?

And fwiw, there's no way they had that many all going up to Moscow at once. I'd be surprised if it was more than half that number. The videos showing the convoys advancing gave the impression that they didn't have that many. It would have been too easy for Russia to use their air power to wipe them out if it came to that.

I can't help but think this was staged by a handful of people and they made sure it looked good for the rest of the world. If Poots was serious and if this was real, Prigozhin would have been executed upon capture. Letting him go to Belarus doesn't make a lot of sense unless there was an agreement in place ahead of time. Prigozhin doesn't surrender unless he knows his safety was guaranteed.

The whole thing doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[Bobario]

Of course not, but the question remains, did they do so thinking they were friendlies or opposed to Putin?

And fwiw, there's no way they had that many all going up to Moscow at once. I'd be surprised if it was more than half that number. The videos showing the convoys advancing gave the impression that they didn't have that many. It would have been too easy for Russia to use their air power to wipe them out if it came to that.

I can't help but think this was staged by a handful of people and they made sure it looked good for the rest of the world. If Poots was serious and if this was real, Prigozhin would have been executed upon capture. Letting him go to Belarus doesn't make a lot of sense unless there was an agreement in place ahead of time. Prigozhin doesn't surrender unless he knows his safety was guaranteed.

The whole thing doesn't pass the smell test

Doesn't matter 25 thousand odd troops rock to the border. You either die or let them through. How Prigozhin survived this is incredible to me either he is going to fall out of a high window or or accidentally come into contact with radioactive Polonium or Novichok. Or it was a false flag to get the Ukranians to commit their reserves or to expose traitors in the Russian military.

 

[SamAndreas]

 

[CoolBrees]

So my conspiracy thought is that this was the out for Putin in Ukraine to reset.

Throw Shoigu under the bus and say the whole thing was his greed and Putin acted off their bad advice etc. - evidenced and supported directly by Priggy’s own words the other day.

He was supposed to turn over his troops on July 1. Well he just did that. In the Perfect place to be redeployed from no less. And priggy gets to walk away out of the slog that is Bakmut into retirement and a bazillion dollars - he more than likely will be “retired” at some point too. His troops don’t have a choice. They are in camps outside of Moscow. Either join or die.

So now, Putin gets a reset and scapegoat, Proggy gets out without admitting to pulling out of Bakmut and all the Wagner troops get redeployed per the July 1 requirement.

Or it was a coup attempt in Russia that ended with hardly a shot fired and the coup attempter alive. Which totally fits with their history. (Sarcasm)

 

[TheRealJRad]

My only advice to Prigozhin... don't go into any tall buildings in Belarus.

This dude is going to fall out of a subway station window.

 

[DaveXA]

Doesn't matter 25 thousand odd troops rock to the border. You either die or let them through. How Prigozhin survived this is incredible to me either he is going to fall out of a high window or or accidentally come into contact with radioactive Polonium or Novichok. Or it was a false flag to get the Ukranians to commit their reserves or to expose traitors in the Russian military.

I'm going with false flag/staged. Not much else makes any sense.