Ukraine (16 Viewers)

[Sailorsaint]

I get so tired of hearing people talk about "all the money we've given Ukraine". Other than humanitarian aid, what money have we given Ukraine? I've seen us profit off this war, but I have yet to see any negative economic results. It's just a russian talking point being parroted by the gullible that don't understand how the military complex works.

 

[BooBirdSaint]

A deal for who though? A one sided deal giving Russia all of the concessions and taking their mineral rights away from them is theft, not a deal. And Russia hasnt been a good faith partner in many of the deals they do. So im not optimistic on a legitimate deal taking place. I'd more than welcome a deal if its reasonably fair to Ukraine.

A deal brokered by the US and Russia is a non-starter without Ukraine at the table.

Sure, Ukraine and the West wants that too. Its really up to Russia.

No, it's not. Border integrity goes hand in hand with any peace deal. You can't have one without the other.

Maybe, or Russia can pull back, reload and invade again in 6-12 months. I think any deal that doesn't have security guarantees for Ukraine aren't worth the paper it's written on. Russia has to recognize Ukraine's sovereignty, and if they want to join NATO or the EU, then they should be allowed to do so of their own volition.

Sorry DaveXA I'm not skilled on multi quoting threads.

So many moving parts right now. I'm optimistic that a lasting peace can be brokered. One that is fair and agreeable to both parties. I'd hope that we'd see a cease-fire soon. Make small steps to stop the killing then move onto the hard decisions. Obviously, there is a lot of posturing right now. Once all that nonsense has concluded I hope they can sit in a room and finally start listening to each other.

Border integrity is important, but I think the Europeans are already floating ideas for a sustainable security. Coalition of the willing is what I've heard it called, maybe Turkey or perhaps the UN can send in the Blue Hats? I'm confident that whatever is decided will be in the best interest for peace.

 

[bigdaddysaints]

they'll throw around the 300B # or whatever it is and think that's cash we have given them, when I'm fact most of it has been weapons/equipment that we have given them that were slated to be replaced or already out of service.
if you don't upgrade these things we'll end up like Russia still using WW2 equipment.
but it's just that's propaganda they like to throw around..
but it absolutely amazes me the ones who think Ukraine should give up their territory for peace. smh. they want to ignore the fact that it's more then likely it'll happen again and again .

 

[bigdaddysaints]

Sorry DaveXA I'm not skilled on multi quoting threads.

So many moving parts right now. I'm optimistic that a lasting peace can be brokered. One that is fair and agreeable to both parties. I'd hope that we'd see a cease-fire soon. Make small steps to stop the killing then move onto the hard decisions. Obviously, there is a lot of posturing right now. Once all that nonsense has concluded I hope they can sit in a room and finally start listening to each other.

Border integrity is important, but I think the Europeans are already floating ideas for a sustainable security. Coalition of the willing is what I've heard it called, maybe Turkey or perhaps the UN can send in the Blue Hats? I'm confident that whatever is decided will be in the best interest for peace.

i don't blame Ukraine one bit for not wanting to give up their territory for the likes of Trump, or anyone for that matter.. if they do, we all know it'll keep happening..
even Zelenskys political opponents are shunning our President..

 

[BooBirdSaint]

but it absolutely amazes me the ones who think Ukraine should give up their territory for peace. smh. they want to ignore the fact that it's more then likely it'll happen again and again .

Obviously, Ukraine isn't under any obligations to do anything it isn't freely willing to do. Ukraine will do what is best for Ukraine. If they want to continue on with the struggle, then they will choose that path. If Ukraine chooses peace and Russia doesn't then that could be a huge challenge for the US. I for one hope they choose peace.

 

[Sailorsaint]

Obviously, Ukraine isn't under any obligations to do anything it isn't freely willing to do. Ukraine will do what is best for Ukraine. If they want to continue on with the struggle, then they will choose that path. If Ukraine chooses peace and Russia doesn't then that could be a huge challenge for the US. I for one hope they choose peace.

Yes, everyone wants a peace, but some want a piece. If a country invaded us that was militarily our equal, would we want to give up the west coast in hopes that said country would honor any peace deal? What if that country had already violated a previous peace deal with us and just invaded? What if that country had a history of breaking peace deals and invading sovereign countries? You can't have peace through appeasement. We should have learned that from the first two world wars.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

The thinking might be short of direct entry by a major power, Ukraines goose is eventually cooked.

Sadly there does not appear to be political will by anyone in the West to even consider this

And maybe they all know this, and it’s now a matter of just pointing fingers

So the peacenik logic is, if they are going to lose anyway, may as well lose with less death / destruction

 

[DaveXA]

The thinking might be short of direct entry by a major power, Ukraines goose is eventually cooked.

Sadly there does not appear to be political will by anyone in the West to even consider this

And maybe they all know this, and it’s now a matter of just pointing fingers

So the peacenik logic is, if they are going to lose anyway, may as well lose with less death / destruction

The thing is, we don't necessarily know that they'll lose anyway. Everyone thought they wouldn't last more than a few weeks. It's certainly more difficult without the US solidly in their corner, but I do think the political will is there in much of Europe. They were ravaged by WWII and they haven't forgotten what got them there. So I do think they'll do what it takes to help Ukraine maintain their positions as long as they can. Russia is playing the long game and they're hoping Ukraine just gives in to attrition. Ukraine has to make this campaign as painful as possible for Russia because then it makes it less likely that Russia would be able to invade again anytime soon.

 

[BooBirdSaint]

Yes, everyone wants a peace, but some want a piece. If a country invaded us that was militarily our equal, would we want to give up the west coast in hopes that said country would honor any peace deal? What if that country had already violated a previous peace deal with us and just invaded? What if that country had a history of breaking peace deals and invading sovereign countries? You can't have peace through appeasement. We should have learned that from the first two world wars.

Sailorsaint,
Much respect but I'm not getting into a what if game. What Ukraine and Russia agree to and whether the peace deal is lasting or fair or whatever is irrelevant at this time. IMO the fighting needs to stop, and the parties (Ukraine and Russia) need to start meaningful discussions. Trust this party don't trust that party what are you going to do? You have to try to negotiate a peace with him. I get it, Putin is evil. But he and Zelenskyy are the only two people who can make the fighting stop. So, you have to try regardless of all the if's and but's.
On appeasement, history isn't kind on that point. The West basically rolled over after the first invasion so your point on history repeating is well taken. Still doesn't mean you don't reach for peace, IMO.

 

[efil4stnias]

The thinking might be short of direct entry by a major power, Ukraines goose is eventually cooked.

Sadly there does not appear to be political will by anyone in the West to even consider this

And maybe they all know this, and it’s now a matter of just pointing fingers

So the peacenik logic is, if they are going to lose anyway, may as well lose with less death / destruction

In offensive actions, a military needs a 3 to 1 advantage. Russia does not have a 3 to 1 advantage. They have lost close to 1,000,000 men to date, over 15,000 mechanized pieces (tanks, ifv, artillery systems) they are using mules to ferry ammo along areas of the front. Civilian vehicles to transport troops.

Ukraine will produce 2.5mm drones in 2025.

3 years have passed since "Kyiv in 3 days".

If Russia was going to win, they would have done so by now. They can't win and short of lobbing nuclear bombs, they are a hollow shell. They attract soldiers with promises of $$$. Have you seen some of the POWs? In their 50s or 60s. And finding out commanders simply steal their pay.

Ukraine is fighting for its very existence. Russians are fighting for money or bs lies (and they know its a lie). You can't win when you field a mercenary military.

Ukraine isn't simply going to roll over for Russia and it won't for Trump.

Keep FA and they will FO.

Today Ukraine signed an expansion agriculture trade agreement with China.

EU is positioning themselves as well.

We keep pressing Ukraine to make all the concessions and none of Russia? We are aligning ourselves and could very well be on the outside looking in when this is over.

 

[The Nomad]

I get so tired of hearing people talk about "all the money we've given Ukraine". Other than humanitarian aid, what money have we given Ukraine? I've seen us profit off this war, but I have yet to see any negative economic results. It's just a russian talking point being parroted by the gullible that don't understand how the military complex works.

This! What would it have cost to decommission the arms we sent to Ukraine? 3 times what giving them to Ukraine cost.

 

[bigdaddysaints]

Obviously, Ukraine isn't under any obligations to do anything it isn't freely willing to do. Ukraine will do what is best for Ukraine. If they want to continue on with the struggle, then they will choose that path. If Ukraine chooses peace and Russia doesn't then that could be a huge challenge for the US. I for one hope they choose peace.

what do you consider peace? Ukraine telling Russia "you win, keep what you have taken and we'll accept YOUR terms"? that isn't peace, that's the first step to USSR 2.0.

 

[bigdaddysaints]

This! What would it have cost to decommission the arms we sent to Ukraine? 3 times what giving them to Ukraine cost.

people think we just send that stuff to the scrap yard like a car.. doesn't quite work that way with hundred billion dollars worth of weapons/equipment .

 

[bigdaddysaints]

Sailorsaint,
Much respect but I'm not getting into a what if game. What Ukraine and Russia agree to and whether the peace deal is lasting or fair or whatever is irrelevant at this time. IMO the fighting needs to stop, and the parties (Ukraine and Russia) need to start meaningful discussions. Trust this party don't trust that party what are you going to do? You have to try to negotiate a peace with him. I get it, Putin is evil. But he and Zelenskyy are the only two people who can make the fighting stop. So, you have to try regardless of all the if's and but's.
On appeasement, history isn't kind on that point. The West basically rolled over after the first invasion so your point on history repeating is well taken. Still doesn't mean you don't reach for peace, IMO.

but our leadership is trying to work a peace deal with ONLY one side. then also going to the opposition in Ukraine trying to undermine their leadership. you make tensions way worse that way.

 

[DaveXA]

...
Much respect but I'm not getting into a what if game. What Ukraine and Russia agree to and whether the peace deal is lasting or fair or whatever is irrelevant at this time.

It’s absolutely relevant. You can't have peace without an agreement. And parties to an agreement don't usually agree to something if they don't think it will be somewhat sustainable.

IMO the fighting needs to stop, and the parties (Ukraine and Russia) need to start meaningful discussions.

The fighting won't stop until one of 3 things happens. Ukraine capitulates, Russia withdraws, or both agree to terms of a peace deal that is sustainable. We aren't anywhere near any of those 3 things, so the fighting isn't stopping soon.

Trust this party don't trust that party what are you going to do?

Since there is no trust at all, and certainly Poots has done absolutely nothing to earn any trust or goodwill to this point, Zelensky has zero incentive to sit down with Poots.

You have to try to negotiate a peace with him.

Try maybe, but its clearly a waste of time until Russia shows they're a willing partner.

I get it, Putin is evil. But he and Zelenskyy are the only two people who can make the fighting stop. So, you have to try regardless of all the if's and but's.

No, you don't waste time trying until the aggressor shows they're willing to compromise. Poots isn't willing to compromise at this point.

On appeasement, history isn't kind on that point. The West basically rolled over after the first invasion so your point on history repeating is well taken. Still doesn't mean you don't reach for peace, IMO.

Appeasement rarely works. Ukraine should stand their ground and not let Russia just run over them. And they've done that for the most part so far.