Underhill’s latest article cites oline isn’t as dire as it appears. (1 Viewer)

[St. Widge]

My argument is that the Broncos did had some "big names" or my preference would be "proven personnel", at the very least I would wager much better personnel than we currently have (of course, I'm hoping to be proven wrong one day).....both personnel and system matter, both have to be good/great.....

I think the scheme can mask some issues in talent, although athleticism is required, but to be better than average to above average, you have to have talented guys. While guys with lesser talent can be made to do a good enough job, it can be even better if you do have talented guys. Especially at Tackle. As noted a few times, no matter how good the scheme is, 3rd and 13 happens and you have to have guys that can handle great edge rushers on those downs if you want to be more than average to above average. Hopefully Fuaga is one of those guys.

It's just that most of the league is in the average range on the OL due to the lack of properly trained OL coming out of college. Which, I think, has a lot to do with all the RPO, Read Option, and spread systems being run in college.

 

[greatshow25]

Disagree, I think you are vastly underestimating how good those guys really were......

I watched the Broncos a ton back then. They were my second favorite team. Any time you turned on a Denver game in those days all you heard was Alex Gibbs is a genius OL guru. The way the system works is designed for them to not get exposed. All the Denver lineman were undersized mostly sub 300 pounds so they could pull and they didn't have to go one one with bigger DLs. This system is like one big dance.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

That would be the outlier, not the rule when the 4 other teams listed have stud LTs.

False

2016 Falcons 33.6 PPG - Jake Matthews LT - PFF Grade 72.5
2019 49ers 29.0 PPG - Justin Skule LT - PFF Grade 62.3
2023 Rams 23.8 PPG - Alaric Jackson LT - PFF Grade 66.2
2019 Rams 24.6 ppg - Andrew Whitworth LT - PFF Grade 72.8

Also, 2021 Dalvin Cook is better than any 2024 RB on our roster. Labeling him average seems a stretch when he made the Pro Bowl.

False

2021 Dalvin Cook PFF - 65.8
2023 Alvin Kamara - 74.1
2023 Kendre Miller - 74.1

The argument that Kubiak is going to institute run-focused and quick passing playing calling to address the OL doesn't fit our roster's skill set. Carr is a deep passer, arguably one of the league's best. We are led by two small-framed deep ball WRs.

False,

It does fit the roster. Carr got better with PA last year. For PA to be successful you have to run the ball or give illusion of run, if you can run PA you can throw the deep ball to your small framed receivers. If you run quick game it puts less pressure on your not good at pass blocking OL because the ball is out in under 3 seconds.

Maybe they figure it out. Maybe Penning proves capable. Maybe Fuaga is a Day 1 stud RT. But, dire is more reasonable than optimistic.

I guess

 

[St4ever]

That's true, but a major point of the new scheme is to avoid 3rd and 13. It's going to happen but if you limit it enough you can get by with less than stellar Tackles.

Plus, if Fuaga turns out to be who we think he is even if the LT is weak, you can give him some help with a TE or a chip.

The only way you avoid those is by not gettin penalties! And that’s been our Achilles Heel!

 

[Scorpius the Allfather]

Kind of, even now the Rams were looking to add Bowers to their cast. The 49ers just drafted yet another WR and the Dolphins just signed Odell and the Texans traded for the Minnesota guy :/. For the Bowers fans, I'm not saying he's not going to be good, I'm saying what I've said all along.... The Saints have their prototypes and they rarely deviate.

Just two years ago they had to lower their threshold for weight to justify drafting Chris Olave. I just don't think they were interested in lowering their threshold for height/weight to justify taking Bowers and likely saw him differently than other teams saw him. They like their 6'5 250+ guys and will only deviate in later rounds. They took a flyer on a similar size TE in Dallin Holker but only in UDFA.

They did something similar when they passed on Patrick Queen a few years back because he was undersize, but were instead willing to give up a late rounder for similarly undersized Kwon Alexander. They typically go prototype early...and here's the kicker.

That also may explain why the Saints were entertaining a trade w/ the Rams. Fuaga has shorter than normal arms. Outside of that he's a top T but as Baldy said, arm length is a real measurement. Mickey said it in his pre-draft interview...he's really got to be moved to take an exception. Something else has to be exceptional about the player, for Fuaga it has to be his foot speed.

Baldy also said Fuaga excels in the wide zone scheme we're going to be using.

 

[Scorpius the Allfather]

This is what I'm saying! What the rest of that recipe???

Mashed potatoes are so simple. Peel them, cut them up some and boil until soft. Mash with a stick of butter, some salt and black pepper and heavy cream. Done. You can add other things if you like, but that's the standard base for it.

 

[meily]

My argument is that the Broncos did had some "big names" or my preference would be "proven personnel", at the very least I would wager much better personnel than we currently have (of course, I'm hoping to be proven wrong one day).....both personnel and system matter, both have to be good/great.....

Their not big names because you remember them.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I'm optimistic about the Kubiak hire. But, that 2021 Vikings rushing offense (113.5ypg) was very middle of the pack (17th) and their running game really dropped off from the 2020 team (142.7ypg).

I do like the coaches they have brought in for the offensive line.

If we get the 2021 Vikings offense, people are going to riot.

That's fair. My only rebuttal is that 113.5 ypg rushing would still represent improvement over the 102.5 ypg rushing last year. 2020 was also the year they ran Dalvin Cook into the ground as he received an 89.0 PFF Grade. 2021 the wheels fell off and he had the below 70 grade I posted earlier. I do truly believe Alvin and Miller have a higher ceiling than 2021 Cook, thus the running game in theory has a higher ceiling than the 2021 Vikings and 113.5 ypg rushing would be our floor.

 

[St. Widge]

That's fair. My only rebuttal is that 113.5 ypg rushing would still represent improvement over the 102.5 ypg rushing last year. 2020 was also the year they ran Dalvin Cook into the ground as he received an 89.0 PFF Grade. 2021 the wheels fell off and he had the below 70 grade I posted earlier. I do truly believe Alvin and Miller have a higher ceiling than 2021 Cook, thus the running game in theory has a higher ceiling than the 2021 Vikings and 113.5 ypg rushing would be our floor.

Isn't there some info out there that Mike Zimmer forced Kubiak to be more conservative and that Kubiak lost his OL coach right before the start of the season because he refused to take the COVID vaccine?

 

[B4YOU]

False

2016 Falcons 33.6 PPG - Jake Matthews LT - PFF Grade 72.5
2019 49ers 29.0 PPG - Justin Skule LT - PFF Grade 62.3
2023 Rams 23.8 PPG - Alaric Jackson LT - PFF Grade 66.2
2019 Rams 24.6 ppg - Andrew Whitworth LT - PFF Grade 72.8


False

2021 Dalvin Cook PFF - 65.8
2023 Alvin Kamara - 74.1
2023 Kendre Miller - 74.1


False,

It does fit the roster. Carr got better with PA last year. For PA to be successful you have to run the ball or give illusion of run, if you can run PA you can throw the deep ball to your small framed receivers. If you run quick game it puts less pressure on your not good at pass blocking OL because the ball is out in under 3 seconds.


I guess

Why are you leaving out Trent Williams, Tunsil, and Armstead when they are in your original post? There isn't 2 very good OL on the roster right now. There is McCoy. There is hope for Fuaga and Penning, but no one is proven.

Cook:



Kamara:



I would take 2021 26yo Cook's production over 2024 29yo Kamara's expected production based on his 2023 season. But, calling 2021 Cook average is still a stretch.

Kendre Miller is a projection. I'm optimistic about him and agree with Underhill that he may out-rush Kamara. I also agree that Miller is probably a better RB2 than anyone on that 2021 Vikings roster. That doesn't change that Cook was a very good RB.

Carr isn't a good quick, timing-route, throw with anticipation QB. He needs to see it, know it's open, and then throw it. He needs a solid OL who can hold up while reads (like a kid using his finger) the defense. I don't think he is going to make good decisions if coaches ask him to pick up the pace. But we will see.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Why are you leaving out Trent Williams, Tunsil, and Armstead when they are in your original post? There isn't 2 very good OL on the roster right now. There is McCoy. There is hope for Fuaga and Penning, but no one is proven.

Because you said that not having an elite LT was an anomaly after I said the 2021 Vikings didn't have one. So I expanded on other successful iterations of this offense that did not have an elite OT. Perhaps you aren't comprehending, I'm not saying that the Saints don't need to figure out LT, I'm saying the offense can function just fine without a T in the 80-90 range sir.

Cook:



Kamara:



I would take 2021 26yo Cook's production over 2024 29yo Kamara's expected production based on his 2023 season. But, calling 2021 Cook average is still a stretch.

I'm speaking strictly off pff grades(which are not gospel, but a good baseline) You can't ignore that 2021 Cook was a shell of his former self. I'm simply using the data to compare that last year's AK in an unfavorable system graded better than 2021 Cook in a more favorable system. Do with the data what you'd like but this was simply a direct rebuttal to you making 2021 version of Cook appear to be head and shoulders above what we currently have. Had you said the 2020 version of Cook as a baseline you'd have been right when he graded above 80. As noted by a previous poster the 2020 vikings run game was elite, it was also Cooks last year above an 80 PFF grade. The 2021 version of Cook had production but simply was NOT anywhere close to 2020 and there was a significant drop off un YPG.

Kendre Miller is a projection. I'm optimistic about him and agree with Underhill that he may out-rush Kamara. I also agree that Miller is probably a better RB2 than anyone on that 2021 Vikings roster. That doesn't change that Cook was a very good RB.

I'm not saying he's not a projection, just again, comparing the data where you suggest the 2021 version of Cook is better than what we currently have and as an individual player he wasn't.

Carr isn't a good quick, timing-route, throw with anticipation QB. He needs to see it, know it's open, and then throw it. He needs a solid OL who can hold up while reads (like a kid using his finger) the defense. I don't think he is going to make good decisions if coaches ask him to pick up the pace. But we will see.

Well in that case Allen made the wrong hire and it won't work for Carr. I myself have questions how well Carr will hold up in the quick game so I'm not questioning that however, running the ball, and PA, the other two components of this offense, DO fit Carr and work well with what we have.

 

[RJS]

Well in that case Allen made the wrong hire and it won't work for Carr. I myself have questions how well Carr will hold up in the quick game so I'm not questioning that however, running the ball, and PA, the other two components of this offense, DO fit Carr and work well with what we have.

It will be interesting to see what version of the offense we get. When people think of the quick game, we think of short passing. Last year, Purdy had a freakish season with his yards per pass attempt at 9.0YPA. For comparison Carr was at 7.0 yards per pass attempt.

Play action and quick doesn't necessarily mean short passing. Carr was outstanding last year throwing down the field. I expect Kubiak will lean into that.

 

[DSnfla]

So we don’t need 1st rd picks all across the Oline?!?!

No if you find guys like Evans, Nicks, Armstead, Strief

 

[DSnfla]

My main concern is Penning. Maybe he turns it around and becomes an average starter, but it's certainly no guarantee that he can. If he can't we have a major failure point at LT and teams are going to attack it in every 3rd and long and 2 minute drill situation.

The new scheme should help avoid third and long, but it's going to happen and those tend to be the plays that determine who wins and who loses a game. You have to make those plays to win and that's hard to do when you are constantly having to protect you LT or your LT keeps giving up pressure.

Hopefully Penning can turn it around, but I would feel a lot better about the offense if they can find a average veteran LT who can play if Penning still isn't ready to start.

Penning will be better than last yr, heck he was improving almost every game. But let's just for argument's sake that he does not improve greatly. 1st A mediocre TP along with an improved RT ( Fuaga ) an improved LG ( Saldiveri) because Hurst was awful. If McCoy and Ruiz just stay the same our OL will be better. But let's say TP is just not getting it done ( I'll bet $ he starts the yr barring injury) Udo has played LT and is just as good as Peat was. That coupled with the nes system and Benton and Dennison leads me to think our OL will be ok

 

[DSnfla]

Not buying it, Nick is probably trying to spin it to help creating a good mood.
In our situation the point is not how serviceable the line can be, but if our left side can avoid being terrible. If 1-2 players are totally unfit (like last year), you don’t mind having 1, 2, 3 players above 70 or any other grade

SMH do you know that even with TP starting @ LT the right side of the OL was worse ???