UnitedHealth CEO shot (10 Viewers)

[Mr. Blue Sky]

That said, state-maintained infrastructure like roads, bridges, and public transportation generally functions well. We also have a fairly decent public transportation system. When I was commuting, I often opted for the train instead of driving. It was reasonably priced, offered comfortable seating with a table, and had internet access.

In fact, taking the train ended up saving me about an hour each workday because my employer allowed the time I worked on the train to count as part of my daily schedule. It was a practical and efficient solution!

Fwiw my primary mode of transportation where i live here in Asia is the BTS Skytrain.. man is it clean and efficient.. i would say somewhere around 90-95% of the population utilizes motorcycles/scooters, either their own or the Uber-like service w/motos here, but i need four wheels and metal around me .. so I sometimes utilize the Uber car service (non-moto) which is way cheaper than in USA, sometimes the Skytrain like when i have to go downtown tomorrow for meetings .. and sometimes i just walk.. and walk.. i never checked the fitness app on my phone back home, but now i pay attention to it and i noticed im averaging over 7.500 steps per day without even trying.. some days if i include a jog in the park, ill check the app and ive got 12k or 13k steps in a day, it’s wild .

 

[saintmdterps]

The difference is a for-profit healthcare system. The money to the stockholders has to come from somewhere

It's not just the money spent, it's what you get for your money. Denmark spends less but actually has better functional outcomes for its patients. In the USA you spend far more and get far less because there is no profit for enhancing quality of life, only quality of like eg kidney dialysis. The hospital where I work has a kidney dialysis unit and I can tell you not one of those patients is able to work, and they report a steady erosion of their quality of life.

There are situations where kidney dialysis can be warranted such as ARF, or acute renal failure, whereupon kidney function can be recovered. Using dialysis to extend life for chronic renal failure is quite literally painful, and only generates profit for the providers.

 

[bigdaddysaints]

I've heard nothing but horror stories from people who live in those free healthcare countries. Takes forever to see someone and the quality is often much lower. I'm sure theres a ton of pros to it but people act like its some utopia. I do agree, health insurance industry is probably the 3rd most scummiest industry on the planet behind politician and journalism industries.

but we have those same horror stories here (probably more and worse) and we are going broke and going into bankruptcy in the process.. i bet Canada doesn't have story after story after story about people dying on the emergency room floor in the waiting room

 

[SystemShock]

but we have those same horror stories here (probably more and worse) and we are going broke and going into bankruptcy in the process.. i bet Canada doesn't have story after story after story about people dying on the emergency room floor in the waiting room

So, a few months ago, the daughter of friends of ours, who lives in Vancouver, had to have gall bladder surgery. It had taken months to get the surgery approved... it coincided with her starting a new job, and her being in a 30-day probation period at work, so she asked for a week of to get the surgery, for which she got all the time she needed as she was let go (employment at will).

Anyway she goes in to have the surgery, and she's told the surgery is postponed (no surgeon available, no bed available) and to come back in 2 weeks. She didn't make the two weeks as her gall bladder got seriously infected, and she was rushed to the hospital.. rather than rush her into surgery, she's placed in a hall on a chair with a bag of fluids (still no beds available). Since the doctor deemed her stable enough, the surgery kept on being pushed back... she stayed 3+ days in a hall sitting on a chair with fluids attached to her, not being able to eat, as the doctor said she couldn't eat before the surgery.

After she finally got the surgery, she was told she needed to leave in 4 hours because the hospital needed the bed.

The husband of a friend of my wife went in because a skin cancer (the bad one, the one that attaches to lymph nodes) had returned. He was told that the next available 15 minutes (that's what I am told doctors visits last) were 12 weeks in the future.

A couple of things I learned about the Canadian healthcare system:
The aforementioned 15 minute time limit on doctor's visits.
You can only talk about 1 subject with your doctor. There's no the "by the way" that happens in the U.S.
You are assigned a doctor and a hospital. If you lose your doctor for whatever reason, you are placed on a waiting list.
Hospitals close on weekends to save money.

Why so few doctors? Because doctors prefer private practice and getting paid. This happens in MX too, BTW... 2 years ago MX had to import 500+ doctors from Cuba as MX doctors not only want to make more money, but they also don't want to be sent to places with high cartel activity.

Now, they are not going to go bankrupt like someone in the U.S. could, but that's not exactly quality healthcare either. What our friends tell us, the Canadian system is collapsing, it just can't sustain the model.

 

[SWJJ]

There's a large number of Canadians living here in Mérida. The ones I've met, to the person, everyone has a horror story about the Canadian healthcare system.

My wife is from Australia. Her family, many of whom have lived both here and there, prefer the Australian system over ours by a WIDE margin. Her mother, grandmother, and a sister are all breast cancer survivors, and got wonderful care for nothing more than their regular tax dollars in Australia, which included double mammectomies and breast reconstruction and prosthetics. On her father's side (in America) her grandmother died of Cancer and her grandfather spent 7 figures getting her treatments and traveling to MD Anderson and the Mayo Clinic. I have 2 friends I know personally from Canada and they have complained about the wait time before, but then when they needed specialized care in America, they found the wait time to get in to see the doctors of their choice was as long, and in one case longer than the wait time back in BC.


I'm curious if you know any of these Canadians that have ever been bankrupt by Healthcare, cause Americans have horror stories AND bankruptcies.

 

[SystemShock]

My wife is from Australia. Her family, many of whom have lived both here and there, prefer the Australian system over ours by a WIDE margin. Her mother, grandmother, and a sister are all breast cancer survivors, and got wonderful care for nothing more than their regular tax dollars in Australia, which included double mammectomies and breast reconstruction and prosthetics. On her father's side (in America) her grandmother died of Cancer and her grandfather spent 7 figures getting her treatments and traveling to MD Anderson and the Mayo Clinic. I have 2 friends I know personally from Canada and they have complained about the wait time before, but then when they needed specialized care in America, they found the wait time to get in to see the doctors of their choice was as long, and in one case longer than the wait time back in BC.


I'm curious if you know any of these Canadians that have ever been bankrupt by Healthcare, cause Americans have horror stories AND bankruptcies.

I keep hoping people will follow posts, especially those that quote other posts, rather than throwing fish or straw at me, but alas.

Let me (hopefully) make it clear: I am not exalting the virtues of the U.S. healthcare system; I replied to someone who brought up the Canadian healthcare system, even mentioned moving to Canada, and I gave specific examples why the grass ain't as green as some think on the other side of the fence.

I have no idea how the healthcare system works in Australia.
I don't know anyone who's been bankrupt by healthcare in Canada.

 

[SWJJ]

So, a few months ago, the daughter of friends of ours, who lives in Vancouver, had to have gall bladder surgery. It had taken months to get the surgery approved... it coincided with her starting a new job, and her being in a 30-day probation period at work, so she asked for a week of to get the surgery, for which she got all the time she needed as she was let go (employment at will).

Anyway she goes in to have the surgery, and she's told the surgery is postponed (no surgeon available, no bed available) and to come back in 2 weeks. She didn't make the two weeks as her gall bladder got seriously infected, and she was rushed to the hospital.. rather than rush her into surgery, she's placed in a hall on a chair with a bag of fluids (still no beds available). Since the doctor deemed her stable enough, the surgery kept on being pushed back... she stayed 3+ days in a hall sitting on a chair with fluids attached to her, not being able to eat, as the doctor said she couldn't eat before the surgery.

After she finally got the surgery, she was told she needed to leave in 4 hours because the hospital needed the bed.

The husband of a friend of my wife went in because a skin cancer (the bad one, the one that attaches to lymph nodes) had returned. He was told that the next available 15 minutes (that's what I am told doctors visits last) were 12 weeks in the future.

A couple of things I learned about the Canadian healthcare system:
The aforementioned 15 minute time limit on doctor's visits.
You can only talk about 1 subject with your doctor. There's no the "by the way" that happens in the U.S.
You are assigned a doctor and a hospital. If you lose your doctor for whatever reason, you are placed on a waiting list.
Hospitals close on weekends to save money.

Why so few doctors? Because doctors prefer private practice and getting paid. This happens in MX too, BTW... 2 years ago MX had to import 500+ doctors from Cuba as MX doctors not only want to make more money, but they also don't want to be sent to places with high cartel activity.

Now, they are not going to go bankrupt like someone in the U.S. could, but that's not exactly quality healthcare either. What our friends tell us, the Canadian system is collapsing, it just can't sustain the model.

The cries of Canada's healthcare system collapsing are old retreads from post-covid strain that had a lot of practitioners leave healthcare. There were article about the system's imminent collapse back in 2022. So Canada reallocated funds to total about 2 Billion Dollars, and funded a Digital-records efforts to help streamline services and ease the strain the pandemic left. Canada (in 2023) had prioritized Expanding family services to improve access to care, streamlined education and incentivized the field to expand the supply of healthcare workers, improved access to mental health and mental health services and modernized sharing of electric information and digital tools.

Every country had health care nightmare stories post covid.

Most universal healthcare nations are learning from these emergencies and working to improve patient experiences.

In America, we used an AI model to deny legitimate claims that was wrong 90% so we can maximize profits for shareholders.


Importing doctors?

America is doing that too: About one-quarter (24.7%) of active physicians in 2020 were international medical graduates (IMGs); that is, they graduated from a medical school outside the United States, Puerto Rico, or Canada. (This includes U.S. citizens who studied abroad.)

 

[SystemShock]

The cries of Canada's healthcare system collapsing are old retreads from post-covid strain that had a lot of practitioners leave healthcare. There were article about the system's imminent collapse back in 2022. So Canada reallocated funds to total about 2 Billion Dollars, and funded a Digital-records efforts to help streamline services and ease the strain the pandemic left. Canada (in 2023) had prioritized Expanding family services to improve access to care, streamlined education and incentivized the field to expand the supply of healthcare workers, improved access to mental health and mental health services and modernized sharing of electric information and digital tools.

If you say so. Go tell that to Laurie in Vancouver.

Every country had health care nightmare stories post covid.

Sure.

Most universal healthcare nations are learning from these emergencies and working to improve patient experiences.

Yeah, right.

In America, we used an AI model to deny legitimate claims that was wrong 90% so we can maximize profits for shareholders.

Sounds about right.

Importing doctors?

America is doing that too: About one-quarter (24.7%) of active physicians in 2020 were international medical graduates (IMGs); that is, they graduated from a medical school outside the United States, Puerto Rico, or Canada. (This includes U.S. citizens who studied abroad.)

Sure. So?

What point are you trying to make to me?
U.S. healthcare system bad? I know the flaws of the U.S. healthcare system. I was on it for 30 years. Yet again, I am not exalting the virtues of the U.S. healthcare system by pointing out the flaws in other systems, I am just saying the grass isn't as green as some think North of the border.

Incidentally (ironically even), my last employer, the last 5-6 years of employment, we had United Healthcare as a provider, and I never had an issue with them, other than the $800 a month premium.

 

[SWJJ]

What point are you trying to make to me?
U.S. healthcare system bad? I know the flaws of the U.S. healthcare system. I was on it for 30 years. Yet again, I am not exalting the virtues of the U.S. healthcare system by pointing out the flaws in other systems, I am just saying the grass isn't as green as some think North of the border.

And I'm trying to show you, that is it indeed greener, and they are at least watering their grass. Just because theirs is also flawed, doesn't mean we shouldn't look to them as a better model. We spend the most per capita on healthcare, by a good margin, and largely have very poor health outcomes.

It doesn't have to be a perfect solution, to be better than the current American model.

 

[Mr. Blue Sky]

And I'm trying to show you, that is it indeed greener, and they are at least watering their grass. Just because theirs is also flawed, doesn't mean we should look to them as a better model. We spend the most per capita on healthcare, by a good margin, and largely have very poor health outcomes.

It doesn't have to be a perfect solution, to be better than the current American model.

Thanks for that clarification , and i agree.. Listen, systemshock and the other poster (cant remember who) who said ‘healthcare outside of the US ain’t no utopia’ i dont think anyone here is saying that.. what they (we ?) are trying to communicate is that healthcare costs and outcomes and experiences in most other countries are magnitudes better than they are in the United States.. nothing’s perfect, no place is perfect- but i agree with swjj that the grass in just about every other developed country is way more green and lush, probably b/c it gets watered and nurtured and the people actually invest in it through somehting called taxes .

 

[St. Widge]

Taking the high road does nothing.

Where was the outrage for this?

CIGNA Employee Flips Off Mother Of Dead Girl Denied Transplant

CIGNA Employee Flips Off Mother Of Dead Girl Denied Transplant

www.huffpost.com

Nowhere. An estimated 45,000 Americans die for insurance reasons every year. Where has the outrage been? Where has the reform discussion been?

In another post you ask how the British, Danish, etc managed single payer healthcare without shooting people. How would they handle it in France?

This whole thing is a story because one of our "beloved" millionaires was the victim. How many people get shot every year? They're not millionaires so it doesn't matter. The only reason that this story hasn't died is because there is, allegedly, a picture of the shooter and they appear to be a white male. If they didn't have a picture they would have executed the first minority that they saw and claimed that they got him.

I'm still not sure how saying cold blooded murder, regardless of the cause it is allegedly done in favor of is wrong, is somehow "taking the high road." It seems like it's something we all once agreed on but maybe not anymore.

But, the failure of the American media to take on this issue doesn't justify murder. And there has been discussion of reform for many years including often on this forum. If you care deeply about this I applaud you, but get out there a do something about it. Run for office, lobby your legislators, etc. It may or may not work, but it has a better chance of working that some guy gunning down a CEO on the streets of New York.

Also, I was unaware that the French Revolution was fought over a bad health care system. But I do now recall the slogan "Liberty, Equality, and coverage for pre-existing conditions" as they stormed the Bastille.

Edit: At any rate, I'm done with this thread since Jim already said what I was trying to express better than I can and I'm only pissing people off who are already angry. So, have fun storming the castles without me.

 

[Sun Wukong]

Person of interest is being detained and questioned in Pennsylvania.

 

[SystemShock]

And I'm trying to show you, that is it indeed greener, and they are at least watering their grass.

You are not showing me anything, you are just throwing fish and straw at me. I know there are other countries that have systems that work much better for for their citizens.

Just because theirs is also flawed, doesn't mean we should look to them as a better model.

??? Rephrase?

We spend the most per capita on healthcare, by a good margin, and largely have very poor health outcomes.

You don't have to tell me... I know people in the U.S. spend a lot of money on healthcare... again, I paid $800 a month and deductibles for many years... my preemie son cost $250,000 for 3 days in the NICU.

As for poor health outcomes, I can tell you with 100% certainty, my son would've died in most places around the world.

It doesn't have to be a perfect solution, to be better than the current American model.

Who's saying otherwise?

 

[Saint Jack]

You can’t go make your entire career off denying people healthcare and expect the public to cry for the poor little rich boy.

 

[Dago]

I'm still trying to sort my own thoughts on the murder and the internet public's reaction to it.

I abhor death and violence, and I'm a great believer in the rule of law, and against any sort of vigilante type actions. So, the murder is very dismaying to me. I also get anger at a system that places profits of people's lives -- it is definitely a fact that insurance companies decide that a certain person is not worth saving based on how it will eat into profits. Given that, I can understand a reaction of "well, he's not the first person I'm going to cry about" and going on your life.

I do think a breakdown of social order will lead to much worse outcomes for almost everyone. You can hope that what emerges after is a more "just" system, but historically what often arises out of such chaos is even worse.

I don't know how to fix it, I wish our focus in society was more on compassion over profits. Shared responsibility over individual pleasure. But we aren't there, and trying to force it often leads to bad outcomes as well.

However, I do fear if we don't make changes soon, we'll see bigger breakdowns in social norms and rule of law. I know the billionaire class is aware of this as well... some are working to make changes through charity, but many of them are just building bunkers and creating exit plans to flee.

Very well said