What if I told you that we might be re-living the Mike Ditka era? (1 Viewer)

[cajnwillie]

Ditka suffered from thinking he was the smartest guy in the room about football…but it just wasn’t true. The game had moved on from 4 yards and a cloud of dust and he hadn’t. And Ditka’s ego was to gigantic to admit he was wrong, or change his ways.

 

[Saint Jack]

Ditka suffered from thinking he was the smartest guy in the room about football…but it just wasn’t true. The game had moved on from 4 yards and a cloud of dust and he hadn’t. And Ditka’s ego was to gigantic to admit he was wrong, or change his ways.

He was living off past success. Much like a certain coach in the west….

 

[2024InjuryApocalypse]

Were the Saints at or tied for the division at any point during the Ditka Years?

The high water mark of the Ditka era was a 3-0 start in 1998. We would go 3-10 the remainder of the way.

I disagree with the overall premise, FWIW. We haven't traded an entire draft, for starters.

 

[Saintman2884]

The Power of Two

If there's one thing that I've noticed regarding the success of our franchise, it's that certain components worked very well together, which birthed success.

In 1986 Tom Benson hired Jim Finks to be the GM of the Saints. Finks' then hired Jim Mora, who was considered the best coach in the USFL at the time. The Finks & Mora era paid immediate dividends, which gave birth to the first winning season in franchise history, also the first ever playoff berth in 1987. This led to Finks winning NFL Executive of the year and Mora also winning NFL Coach of the year. While the combination of Finks & Mora brought in a lot of success and developed a winning tradition in New Orleans, it was far from perfect. Finks was pretty stern in not wanting to pay players a lot of money, which resulted in Bobby Hebert holding out during the 1990 season, and eventually trading away Pat Swilling.

Finks and Mora continued to enjoy success together until 1993 when Finks resigned due to Lung Cancer.
When Finks stepped down, his responsibility were picked up by 3 people: Bill Kuharich, Jim Mora & Jim Miller; Whom the late Buddy D commonly referred to as Curly, Larry & Moe - The Three Stooges

The combination of the 3 made a lot of bad & questionable moves. Part of those moves were: dismantling the Dome Patrol, releasing HOF Kicker Morten Andersen (who ended up signing with the rival Atlanta Falcons) and most notably passing on HOF Running Back Eddie George for CB Alex Molden during the 1996 draft.
Before the ship completely sank, Jim Mora decided to resign in the middle of the 1996 season, and the team finished 3-13.

Fast Forward to Sean Payton

After the Saints finished 3-13 for the 2005 season, Coach Jim Haslett was relieved of his duties. When Sean Payton was hired, most fan's reaction was "Who?".
As faith would have it, pure luck fell into the organisation's lap as the Saints would have a legendary draft in 2006 (which included Heisman trophy winner Reggie Bush), the best FA signing of all time in Drew Brees which resulted in a NFC Championship appearance during the first season.

The combination of Sean & Drew has given the Who Dat Nation (born in 2006 by Bobby Hebert) the greatest success in the history of the franchise, which included a Super Bowl victory in 2009. During this era numerous records were shattered and the Saints were no longer considered a "joke" in the NFL. At one point, the Saints were coined as "America's Team", a title once held by the Dallas Cowboys. Those who witnessed this era will pass on stories to their Children & Grandchildren.

After the 2020 Season Drew Brees decided to retire, and Sean Payton followed him a year later. Some speculate that Sean Payton didn't want to go through a rebuild with the Saints now that his HOF QB had retired.

Mike Ditka

After losing, finishing 3-13 in 1996 (their worst record since 1985), The Saints needed a big name to recapture the fanbase. In 1997 GM Bill Kuharich recommended Tom Benson to hire Mike Ditka. Ditka, who was out of football for 5 years joined the Saints as the 2nd all-time winningest coach of the Chicago Bears. He also won a Superbowl as a player, assistant and Head Coach. Prior to Kuharich recommending Ditka, the late Buddy D heavily lobbied for the Saints to hire the former Bears coach. If I had to guess, the hiring of Ditka had roughly a 70% approval from most fans.

When many think of Mike Ditka with the Saints, it is often thought of as a circus, a joke and a complete embarrassment to the NFL. Depending on the age of the reader, he might be considered the worst coach in Franchise history. Outside of his media rants, his famous Wedding Photo with Ricky Williams & giving fans the middle finger, Ditka made some bad decisions on the field. He was fired after 3 seasons.


So where does Dennis Allen fit in? Is he the reincarnated version of Mike Ditka in New Orleans? Not exactly, however through 20 games, there are some similarities:

* Both teams lost 10 games their first year...and were rewarded
- When Kuharich first approached Ditka with a contract, he wanted to sign Ditka for 5 years. Ditka firmly stated that he'd rather the contract be for 3 years and mentioned that if he couldn't do anything in 3 years, then he shouldn't be the coach. After the 1997 season, the Saints finished 6-10 (improving their record by 3 wins from their previous season). This was enough to convince GM Bill Kuhrich to try again and lock Ditka into a 5 year contract. Ditka agreed to an extension that would pay him through the 2002 season.

- After finishing 7-10 for the 2022 season, Dennis Allen wasn't extended on top of his current 4 year deal, however he returned as the head coach and was given more personnel authority. Hiring coaches & players whom he worked with during his time with the Oakland Raiders, earning the nickname among some fans as "The New Orleans Raiders".
The decision to bring Allen back was a shock to some, as it appeared that he would be let go at the end of the 2022 season. Due to the performance of the 2022, it was apparent that a coaching change would take place, to the point that a rumor started to circulate Sean Payton would return to the Saints - which he later admitted there were some truth to.


* Both teams featured a strong defense
- Although the 1997 Saints finished 6-10, they featured a strong defense which finished 4th in the NFL, earning the nickname "Swamp Dogs"
- The 2022 Saints finished 5th in total defense and started a streak of holding opponents to under 20 points per game

* Both teams had a bad Offensive Line
- Despite having HOF LT Willie Roaf, the Saints were top 10 in sacks given up in 1997 & 1998
- The 2022 Saints did ok in pass protection, however starting the 2023 season, the offensive line is a serious concern

* Both teams were held back by the Offense
- When the Saints hired Ditka, he wanted the last say on any coaches or players. Ditka reached out to his friend, Saints Legend Danny Abramowicz to be his OC. Prior to accepting the job, Abramowicz was the special teams coordinator for the Chicago Bears. Ditka attempted to install a Power running game scheme, however the offense finished towards the bottom every year. The offense under Ditka suffered from a mix of bad personnel & poor play calling. Despite the results, Ditka refused to fire his friend. QB Heath Shuler once mentioned that during his time with the Redskins, they would have over 200 passing plays in their playbook. He said the Saints barely had over 20.

- Despite the offensive talent, the 2022 Saints would only score over 20 points 8 times, and entering the 2023 season, they have yet to score over 20. Offensive Coordinator Pete Carmichael has been heavily criticized for his predictability, lack of creativity and not properly using his personnel.


Just as Mike Ditka came after the successful era of Jim Mora, Dennis Allen comes after the successful era of Sean Payton. As of 2023, the perception of Dennis Allen is mixed, however most would agree that he's not the long term answer as Payton was. If history is any indication, then Allen might have 1 more year to make things right.

Okay, here's some of my thoughts and responses to your above-post:

(1) Jim Finks mightve been a HOF genius as a GM and shrewd evaluator of talent, and skill but even when he was with the Vikings and Bears, he had his share of swings and misses and that stubbornness in the mid/late 70's reared it's ugly head when he downright refused to even consider signing Oakland Raiders QB Kenny Stabler for a possible trade in summer of 1979 even though Bears then-HC and many Bears players, like Walter Payton, were absolutely pleading for him to make the trade. His response: we might trade for Stabler for a 4th rounder, but no more, otherwise, we're happy with what we have and at QB, in the late 70's/early 80's Bears had a three-pronged QB by committee, they didnt have a legitimately decent QB until Jim Mcmahon came along. Stabler, by 1979, was a 4-time Pro Bowler and SB XI winner, and still had a few good years left in the tank.


Oh, and BTW, most Bears draft scouts recommended he draft local nearby Notre Dame QB standout Joe Montana in the 1979 draft, well..Finks thought he knew better and chose somebody else.

(2). After Finks resigned and later died a year later due to smoking-related lung cancer, even though officially, there was a "three-headed monster" doing GM's responsibilities, in reality, it was mostly Jim Mora making the decisions off-field with input obviously sometimes from Kuharich and Miller because despite his GM title, Mora never really respected or saw Kuharich as being anywhere near his equal, he was a well-liked underling, he'd always been subservient to Mora even when both were in the USFL and Kuharich was an assiatant on Mora's Philadelphia/Baltimore Stars teams and that power-sharing role didnt change. Under Ditka, Kuharich didnt have the same power and influence that Loomis would later have because Ditka was hired with the premise that he'd have the final say in personnel and draft decisions.

(3) Heath Shuler was a terrible, sheetty bust of a QB in Washington as he was in New Orleans, no matter what kind of offensive play books he had. He's considered one of the NFL's biggest QB draft busts in history for a reason.

 

[rsmith2783]

Okay, here's some of my thoughts and responses to your above-post:

(1) Jim Finks mightve been a HOF genius as a GM and shrewd evaluator of talent, and skill but even when he was with the Vikings and Bears, he had his share of swings and misses and that stubbornness in the mid/late 70's reared it's ugly head when he downright refused to even consider signing Oakland Raiders QB Kenny Stabler for a possible trade in summer of 1979 even though Bears then-HC and many Bears players, like Walter Payton, were absolutely pleading for him to make the trade. His response: we might trade for Stabler for a 4th rounder, but no more, otherwise, we're happy with what we have and at QB, in the late 70's/early 80's Bears had a three-pronged QB by committee, they didnt have a legitimately decent QB until Jim Mcmahon came along. Stabler, by 1979, was a 4-time Pro Bowler and SB XI winner, and still had a few good years left in the tank.


Oh, and BTW, most Bears draft scouts recommended he draft local nearby Notre Dame QB standout Joe Montana in the 1979 draft, well..Finks thought he knew better and chose somebody else.

(2). After Finks resigned and later died a year later due to smoking-related lung cancer, even though officially, there was a "three-headed monster" doing GM's responsibilities, in reality, it was mostly Jim Mora making the decisions off-field with input obviously sometimes from Kuharich and Miller because despite his GM title, Mora never really respected or saw Kuharich as being anywhere near his equal, he was a well-liked underling, he'd always been subservient to Mora even when both were in the USFL and Kuharich was an assiatant on Mora's Philadelphia/Baltimore Stars teams and that power-sharing role didnt change. Under Ditka, Kuharich didnt have the same power and influence that Loomis would later have because Ditka was hired with the premise that he'd have the final say in personnel and draft decisions.

(3) Heath Shuler was a terrible, sheetty bust of a QB in Washington as he was in New Orleans, no matter what kind of offensive play books he had. He's considered one of the NFL's biggest QB draft busts in history for a reason.

Thanks for the info! As great as Finks was, he was far from perfect. That stubbornness can either be your best friend, or your worst enemy. We've seen that here with each coach/gm that we've had.

Yes Heath was a really bad QB lol. But his comparison on the Redskins playbook vs the Saints playbook holds some weight. Most admitted that Abramowicz had no business calling plays in the NFL.

 

[renegadewa]

I keep saying this..............

Saints fans are gonna Saints fan!!

 

[Slidell Mike]

I intentionally left Loomis out because that's another thread, and for the record I'm not a fan of his. However he deserves his spot in the Saints HOF whenever he leaves the organization.
If Loomis were the GM during the Ditka years, do you think the results would have been any different?

I agree that Mike & Buddy worked well together. Apart they had success but could never return and win the big game.

Loomis definitely has his flaws too, but from a Saints perspective, probably the best GM we've ever had, although you could make a case for Finks based on where the franchise was at the time he took over and what he had to create essentially from scratch. That's good question whether results would have been different with Loomis / Ditka. Loomis has tended to facilitate what his head coach wanted, especially early in his career - certainly with Haslett and, justifiably with Payton. I think the Loomis we have now, exerts more control over football operations with DA. I guess if, theoretically, Loomis hired Ditka, then he probably would have deferred a lot of football decisions to Ditka and we'd have similar results - at least early. I guess I'd hope that Loomis wouldn't have been dumb enough to hire Ditka in the first place! Definitely an interesting question.

 

[BikesBurgersBeer]

Wouldn't a more accurate comparison be the Jim Mora era? Great defense, unoriginal offense that doesn't ever quite come together?

Man, I hate doing this, it's a disservice to both coaches and its so early in the season and maybe still very early in Allen's tenure. Time will tell.

 

[ndcc]

Well done write up.

I wholly disagree with the premise, but the write up is well done.

Errr, ummm…

My guess is that the OP may have missed his calling as a political speech writer.

If not that, he could sell sand to the Saudis.

 

[evilsaint]

Oh, c'mon. Shaheed is a much better returner than Keith Poole.

Sure, but how's his iron game?

 

[AmerVet]

The Ditka era was brutal. That, we agree on.

 

[Derrick 63]

Just as Mike Ditka came after the successful era of Jim Mora, Dennis Allen comes after the successful era of Sean Payton.

It is a fun, interesting post.

As someone who has been around this site since the Iron Era days I still say what I always said. The hiring of Ditka wasn't a bad hire. He certainly had the pedigree you look for. The problem was Ditka didn't do a good job. For a lot of different reasons.

 

[ilvdsnts]

Were the Saints at or tied for the division at any point during the Ditka Years?

Yeah, he started out every season tied for 1st place at 0-0.

 

[Clintonrebel]

Ask me mid season. I mean, you would have to actually try to be as bad as the Ditka era. Hard to do by happenstance.

 

[Buhbooh]

better analogy is the Haslett era.