A microcosm of Winston’s career (1 Viewer)

[Wheelo]

You brought up 50 game winning drives and I said that relative to their total wins, a higher rate of his wins comes from GWDs, putting your notion to bring up game winning drives to rest, as it was irrelevant. And just because I had a little time on my hand before my next call, I chose to do a little exercise just for you.

Going through all 90 games that Winston has played in, when they are within a single score (8 points or less) in the last 2 drives of the 4th Q or OT, a game has ended in a turnover 9 times, and this is not taking into account the situation (time, down and distance, or turnover type).

Fun facts about that.
From 2015-2018, Winston had only 3 games that ended in a turnover using the criteria set. (Interception on 4th and 12 with less than a minute left, sack fumble, and hail mary with less than 20 seconds left).
2021 - 0
2022 - 1 (Panthers Hail Mary)
2023 - Yesterday's game.

4 out of 9 games that ended using the criteria set came in 2019. This further drives home the notion that most people's view of Winston comes from the narrative built around the 2019 season. Winston had 3 GWDs as a rookie. How could the narrative around him be that he will end games with a turnover when in a 4 season stretch, that only happened 3 times.

And just to show how GWDs was irrelevant to the point; From 2021 until now (42 games), Derek Carr has 6 games that follow the criteria set that ended with a turnover credited to him. So how can a person whose calling card is GWDs actually have a higher rate of games where they turn the ball over than the person who somehow gained that reputation.

A lot of narratives and talking points don't make sense when they are actually placed under scrutiny and that's all I ever say.


We can say that it is irrelevant to his play but we also can talk about the defense dropping the ball, PC conservative play calling on top of crazy 3rd down play calling, receivers running to the same location, and those few missed plays that Winston had. Anybody looking at film could see that he didn't play bad at all, but that also didn't get us any points. When in got in place to score....Grupe missed.

And like I asked all offseason, what makes Carr better in a game when scoring matters. I'm pretty sure that if Winston started a game with the same play calls that we give Carr, we win easy. But hey, we will never know..lol.

My God, man... This was the most Billy Madison thing I've read on this board.

There's a reason the numbers overall are low and he's had less opportunities. You can point to his defenses or he lost the game before the 4th quarter. All that matters is he's had two chances for GWD's here, and his percentage is 0%.

IN Green Bay, you can say this, that, or the other. And that's fine. But Jameis didn't play well in Green Bay and he didn't hold on to the lead. Yes, the team was bad, but that was the perfect opportunity for him to show he can get it done. He didn't. It shouldn't have come down to a field goal. Anyone outside of this teams fanbase easily points at that and laughs.

And now the if game? Winston starting the game could have been much worse. Could you imagine an interception early on in the game when we couldn't stop a nose bleed? He throws those prayer passes early in the game, Haener may have been in after half-time. There's no false narrative on Jameis. He makes bad decisions and turns the ball over. Those are not narratives or false statements.

 

[Wheelo]

Honestly, I really don't think it's that simple.. I think in reality they're about neck and neck and any given Sunday one could potentially be better or worse than the other one.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions and that's fine. I'm going with a hard no on that. Carr had a bad game and I'd rather watch that than my QB just throwing the ball in the air 40 yards down field. I'm glad people think that's exciting and sustainable, but it made me sick to my stomach.

 

[Brandon13]

Everyone's entitled to their opinions and that's fine. I'm going with a hard no on that. Carr had a bad game and I'd rather watch that than my QB just throwing the ball in the air 40 yards down field. I'm glad people think that's exciting and sustainable, but it made me sick to my stomach.

I don't believe it's sustainable with Jameis but I also don't believe I've seen much of anything from Carr thus far that makes me believe he can find sustained success with us either. Not with this coaching staff we have anyway.

 

[Jesse Custer]

I don't believe it's sustainable with Jameis but I also don't believe I've seen much of anything from Carr thus far that makes me believe he can find sustained success with us either. Not with this coaching staff we have anyway.

Our coaching staff can't coach Carr up (and throws receivers under the bus on his behalf), can't rein Jameis in (Payton proved it's possible), and doesn't know how to use Taysom or flat out just doesn't want to.

 

[Wheelo]

I don't believe it's sustainable with Jameis but I also don't believe I've seen much of anything from Carr thus far that makes me believe he can find sustained success with us either. Not with this coaching staff we have anyway.

Did you happen to see the couple weeks prior to the Vikings? If that's not promising, you're expecting Drew Brees and I'm fairly confident we will never see that again. He had a bad half and we're back to having the board flooded with boring dull topics that mean nothing. "Jameis is exciting" "Dalton over Carr???" "Did you guys know Dennis Allen's coaching record is bad with the Raiders?" "Pete Carmichael". We have yet to point out the reasons behind Carr second guessing himself. Is he not fully comfortable with the playbook? Is there a reason we didn't target MT last week and then we didnt target Olave this week? Things we should be discussing instead of "Start Jameis because he throws 50/50 balls and that's exciting". Hell, you can't even start a thread trying to be positive without the first 15 post all stating the same above things in quotes.

 

[Brandon13]

Did you happen to see the couple weeks prior to the Vikings? If that's not promising, you're expecting Drew Brees and I'm fairly confident we will never see that again. He had a bad half and we're back to having the board flooded with boring dull topics that mean nothing. "Jameis is exciting" "Dalton over Carr???" "Did you guys know Dennis Allen's coaching record is bad with the Raiders?" "Pete Carmichael". We have yet to point out the reasons behind Carr second guessing himself. Is he not fully comfortable with the playbook? Is there a reason we didn't target MT last week and then we didnt target Olave this week? Things we should be discussing instead of "Start Jameis because he throws 50/50 balls and that's exciting". Hell, you can't even start a thread trying to be positive without the first 15 post all stating the same above things in quotes.

I am not saying to start Jameis and while yes it was definitely encouraging to see the offense doing better with Carr for a couple of games there.. I think the struggles before and then after those games probably speaks towards the odds of Carr being able to sustain success here, at least with this coaching staff.

Look, we were sold the idea that Carr was essentially the missing piece in lifting this offense and this team to a higher level than we've seen the past couple of seasons. And thus far it just has not worked out that way.

 

[Wheelo]

I am not saying to start Jameis and while yes it was definitely encouraging to see the offense doing better with Carr for a couple of games there.. I think the struggles before and then after those games probably speaks towards the odds of Carr being able to sustain success here, at least with this coaching staff.

Look, we were sold the idea that Carr was essentially the missing piece in lifting this offense and this team to a higher level than we've seen the past couple of seasons. And thus far it just has not worked out that way.

Agree on the first line. They don't do a good job of getting him settled with easy throws early on and Pete moves away from the run way too often in drives. The fact that AK was destroying them up front and we didn't see PA was insane. The coaching staffs gameplan to start the games have been abysmal. Their 2nd half adjustments, though, show me they can put something together to blow this thing open for the Saints. Will they? Doubt it, but we've seen they can do it.

I think Carr is lifting the offense from last year. The problem is our defense isn't nearly as dominant as it has been. Our offensive stats are all better than average and are better than last year. We let QB's dominant the first half of a game and expect this team to crawl back. We're not built for that, especially on our OLine.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

Our coaching staff can't coach Carr up (and throws receivers under the bus on his behalf), can't rein Jameis in (Payton proved it's possible), and doesn't know how to use Taysom or flat out just doesn't want to.

DA throwing Olave under the bus was the most unnerving part of that episode.

 

[jahsoul357]

My God, man... This was the most Billy Madison thing I've read on this board.

There's a reason the numbers overall are low and he's had less opportunities. You can point to his defenses or he lost the game before the 4th quarter. All that matters is he's had two chances for GWD's here, and his percentage is 0%.

How is his percentage 0% when he has 2 GWDs as a Saint? But I didn't bring up game winning drives; you brought that bogus stat up. The point that was making is GWD drives don't mean crap in the conversation had. No QB is immune to having an turnover that ends a game and the fact that you want to associate it Winston, saying that's what he do, kinda shows you might not know what you are talking about in that regard when reality shows that is not the case more often than not.

That's normally what's happens when you believe narrative instead of taking a second to do your own research.

IN Green Bay, you can say this, that, or the other. And that's fine. But Jameis didn't play well in Green Bay and he didn't hold on to the lead. Yes, the team was bad, but that was the perfect opportunity for him to show he can get it done. He didn't. It shouldn't have come down to a field goal. Anyone outside of this teams fanbase easily points at that and laughs.

Tape shows otherwise. The problem is you probably won't go back and view it because you like where you are right now in thought. Was he perfect? Crap no but tape shows he played well.

And now the if game? Winston starting the game could have been much worse. Could you imagine an interception early on in the game when we couldn't stop a nose bleed? He throws those prayer passes early in the game, Haener may have been in after half-time. There's no false narrative on Jameis. He makes bad decisions and turns the ball over. Those are not narratives or false statements.

It's no what if. Play calling goes to crap when he is in and what would an early interception do when the reality of the matter is we only had THREE points when Carr got hurt. We were down 24 points.

Trivia question; what's the different between a drive ending in an interception and a drive ending with no points?

 

[jahsoul357]

Agree on the first line. They don't do a good job of getting him settled with easy throws early on and Pete moves away from the run way too often in drives. The fact that AK was destroying them up front and we didn't see PA was insane.

You hit the nail on the head with this one and it takes us back to CSP actually scheming and building around players. We SUCKED in the run game in 2021 but that didn't stop us from running (Jameis/Taysom being healthy and scrambling didn't hurt). But in 2021, we were running play action close to the same clip that we did in Drew's prime. I mean, close to 23% and rising. Sean knew what worked for the players he had and it seems like Sneaky Pete has his playbook but won't build for players. Truth be told, Winston and Carr are legitimately 2 of the best QBs at play action. Sneaky Pete totally went away from it last season and we are at the bottom of the league this season. You don't need the run game to be successful for play action to work. You just need to run the freaking ball.

 

[Brandon13]

Agree on the first line. They don't do a good job of getting him settled with easy throws early on and Pete moves away from the run way too often in drives. The fact that AK was destroying them up front and we didn't see PA was insane. The coaching staffs gameplan to start the games have been abysmal. Their 2nd half adjustments, though, show me they can put something together to blow this thing open for the Saints. Will they? Doubt it, but we've seen they can do it.

I think Carr is lifting the offense from last year. The problem is our defense isn't nearly as dominant as it has been. Our offensive stats are all better than average and are better than last year. We let QB's dominant the first half of a game and expect this team to crawl back. We're not built for that, especially on our OLine.

The defense has regressed for sure and if we had a great defense this team is probably at least 7-3 even with the offensive struggles.

I looked it up and we're 12th in total yards per game, averaging only six yards per game more than the 18th ranked offense and we're currently ranked 18th in scoring offense.

At best I'd say we're average offensively right now and like I said, if the defense was very good I think we might be able to win with it especially if we had better coaching.. but with the current combination of all of it that we do have... I've just lost any sense of confidence that I had coming into this season.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

Trivia question; what's the different between a drive ending in an interception and a drive ending with no points?

Jell-o



Just kidding, a pretty valid question. We get pissy about the 3rd and 3 INT on a blown play that was going to lead to a punt...someone even mentioned he should've thrown it OOB, in the grand scheme of things what difference does it make?

I don't think a soul here has defended the 2nd INT because it was a bad throw/read...but TBH I think that throw had just as much to do with coaching deriliction as it did with JW's negligence in throwing that pass. CSP wouldn't have dialed up that play...and even if he did, he would've pounded into JW's head "IF IT ISN'T THERE DONT FREAKING <otherword> THROW IT". PC's problem is that he isn't a coach, he's just a playcaller, and not a good one at that. So who's running the ship on offense, who's holding players accountable when they come off the field...because I know for a fact it isn't PC...and if no one is doing it, then what are we doing w/ keeping that position vacant on the staff?

 

[Wheelo]

How is his percentage 0% when he has 2 GWDs as a Saint? But I didn't bring up game winning drives; you brought that bogus stat up. The point that was making is GWD drives don't mean crap in the conversation had. No QB is immune to having an turnover that ends a game and the fact that you want to associate it Winston, saying that's what he do, kinda shows you might not know what you are talking about in that regard when reality shows that is not the case more often than not.

That's normally what's happens when you believe narrative instead of taking a second to do your own research.


Tape shows otherwise. The problem is you probably won't go back and view it because you like where you are right now in thought. Was he perfect? Crap no but tape shows he played well.


It's no what if. Play calling goes to crap when he is in and what would an early interception do when the reality of the matter is we only had THREE points when Carr got hurt. We were down 24 points.

Trivia question; what's the different between a drive ending in an interception and a drive ending with no points?

My brother in Christ, I'm explaining to you that's what Jameis has done for us lately. His GWD percentage for this season is 0%. He had multiple chances to seal the game in Green Bay and didn't. He punted the ball multiple times last week. There's no narrative.

Tape doesn't show he played well. In fact, the throw to AT Perry that scored a touchdown. I never want to see a QB on the field with a Saints helmet making that throw. That lets me know he has little to no processing power on the field outside of "there's a guy in my teams color." Again, you're rewarding Jameis for the touchdowns. Those were throws not many NFL caliber QB's can make, simply because none of them would ever attempt that. That was Mac Jones throwing a duck interception with a guy wide open in the endzone level of play. We think because it worked, he did a great job, which is insane to me.

You don't know the play calling changes nor do you know what Jameis is doing at the line. The interceptions most certainly matter. What does it matter if he scores 45 points if he's turning the ball over and the other team scores 55? Do you think teams strive to limit turnovers or is it just simply moot whether or not you turn the ball over?

Your trivia question... Field Position. Points matter when the other team scores them. He threw the ball directly to a Viking defender that happened to drop the pass on our 30-yard line. That's 3 points for the Vikings. Easiest trivia question in NA history.

 

[Wheelo]

The defense has regressed for sure and if we had a great defense this team is probably at least 7-3 even with the offensive struggles.

I looked it up and we're 12th in total yards per game, averaging only six yards per game more than the 18th ranked offense and we're currently ranked 18th in scoring offense.

At best I'd say we're average offensively right now and like I said, if the defense was very good I think we might be able to win with it especially if we had better coaching.. but with the current combination of all of it that we do have... I've just lost any sense of confidence that I had coming into this season.

How many times did you find yourself saying last year, "I would kill for even an average offense"? Now we have it, and we still stink... well I guess we're average, lol. But we all know they're capable of being better than average, which is where the frustration comes from..

 

[jahsoul357]

Jell-o



Just kidding, a pretty valid question. We get pissy about the 3rd and 3 INT on a blown play that was going to lead to a punt...someone even mentioned he should've thrown it OOB, in the grand scheme of things what difference does it make?

Agreed 100%. That play was dead the moment the ball was snapped. Wasn't mad at that arm punt but you next point is on point.

I don't think a soul here has defended the 2nd INT because it was a bad throw/read...but TBH I think that throw had just as much to do with coaching deriliction as it did with JW's negligence in throwing that pass. CSP wouldn't have dialed up that play...and even if he did, he would've pounded into JW's head "IF IT ISN'T THERE DONT FREAKING <otherword> THROW IT". PC's problem is that he isn't a coach, he's just a playcaller, and not a good one at that. So who's running the ship on offense, who's holding players accountable when they come off the field...because I know for a fact it isn't PC...and if no one is doing it, then what are we doing w/ keeping that position vacant on the staff?

That 2nd interception was bad and he should have taken the check down but what only a few people are talking about is the fact that we were still pass heavy after we got to a single score. CSP would have dialed up plays appropriate to the situation. But you are 100% right in the fact that PC might not be coaching and just play calling. He can still design plays but we need an OC to take charge, like good ole EB is doing in Washington.

I have a running theory about that...haha.