All of you have been weighing heavy on my mind (1 Viewer)

[Bleu Raeder]

Yes. If you don't die first you will go through the tribulation/great tribulation which is hell on Earth. You will be end up taking the mark of the beast or be beheaded if you refuse. If you take the mark you are doomed. You can read revelation to get the whole picture of the tribulation. At the end of the tribulation we will have the millennial rule if Christ. Remember if you have died before that - and in the tribulation over half the population is going to die - you go to hell until the end of the millinium. At the end of the millinium comes the great white throne judgement where you will be sentenced to the lake of fire for eternity.

All of this can be escaped by simply saying the sinners prayer and accepting the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross. He died in our place so that we can have salvation. It is a free gift. It costs you nothing. This is what grace meant. The favor of God. You have free will. God doesn't sentence anyone to the lake of fire. You sentence yourself by rejecting the free gift of salvation.

I can't force anyone to believe. All I can do is present the truth. I can't give the whole horror of what is to come in this environment. Anyone who truly wants to know pm me. In fact.... derobbin@aol.com. email me and I will give you a call. I just want to help you. This is the calling...the great commission.... of every Christian. I just want to give you the truth.

All you can do is present truth? What truth is there in anything you've said here? You're just repeating things you've heard - the wording is almost too perfect. Did you actually do an exegesis on any of this?

I'm sorry David. You need to study more to determine "truth".

 

[Bleu Raeder]

No. I'm just a fan of chaos. This thread has brought a smile to my face and a tingle in my nether-regions. I also love double entendres.

I love singles....

 

[Taurus]

 

[SystemShock]

Well, we're dealing with different topics here. Sure a lot of it is intertwined, and requires unpacking, but we're delving beyond what we started with here. I'm not and never intended to try and make anyone here think anything. It's more than I can speak on in this thread and do it justice. If you genuinely want to discuss more, I'd be happy to do so via PM. If your intent is just to pick apart what I post here, I'm not interested in discussing further because we'd be getting far away from what my intent for participating was in the first place.

I appreciate the offer; however, when it comes to religion, every time someone asks me if I genuinely want to discuss something, it sounds to me like the only genuine discussion is the one when I accept what they say without a rebuttal. I feel I am genuinely discussing the topic right now.

Adultery, homosexuality, misogyny... sure they all are different topics on their own, but they don't need to be unpacked separately in this context. I am making a very simple proposal: our values and views on those topics have changed; therefore religions need to apologize for what their texts say. Everything the Bible says is "the word of God" (meaning, taken literally), until something doesn't fit wit our current set of values or science disproves it, then it requires study to understand, or plain we can't understand, or it is just a parable. The fact is, as time goes by, more and more of what the Bible says shifts from "the word of God" to it requires study to understand, can't understand, or its a parable.

 

[DaveXA]

I appreciate the offer; however, when it comes to religion, every time someone asks me if I genuinely want to discuss something, it sounds to me like the only genuine discussion is the one when I accept what they say without a rebuttal. I feel I am genuinely discussing the topic right now.

Adultery, homosexuality, misogyny... sure they all are different topics on their own, but they don't need to be unpacked separately in this context. I am making a very simple proposal: our values and views on those topics have changed; therefore religions need to apologize for what their texts say. Everything the Bible says is "the word of God" (meaning, taken literally), until something doesn't fit wit our current set of values or science disproves it, then it requires study to understand, or plain we can't understand, or it is just a parable. The fact is, as time goes by, more and more of what the Bible says shifts from "the word of God" to it requires study to understand, can't understand, or its a parable.

But they do need to be unpacked separately. They are all not the same thing, and the intensity, cause and frequency of each of those issues varies throughout history. Some cultures have bigger problems with these issues than others. The historical backdrop will color people's views and experiences.

The root causes and cultural norms of the times have to be taken into consideration when discussing tricky subjects. And because they happened doesn't mean God approved of them. But like I said earlier. This isn't a religious theology thread. We can visit these questions in pm or a separate thread.

All I ask for is fair consideration. I'm fine with rebuttals, but I'm not fine with having a one-sided debate. I'm not saying you're doing that now, but in my experience, I've had people attempt to do that with me, and I won't engage with someone who won't have a truly open dialogue with me. Regardless, it's going to take a new thread and lengthy posts to cover what needs to be covered to do the topics justice. I'm not going to be able to cover all of that in a short time frame, so expect it to be a lengthy thread.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

But they do need to be unpacked separately. They are all not the same thing, and the intensity, cause and frequency of each of those issues varies throughout history. Some cultures have bigger problems with these issues than others. The historical backdrop will color people's views and experiences.

they 'can' be unpacked separately as they deal with different targets
BUT
they all stem broadly from cultural patriarchy and religion has been the big engine of most culture
most every culture started with a pantheism and female gods (and bi and fluid gods) were part of those religions
then 3 major religions (or 2 plus 1) became patriarchal monotheisms - - that's not to say judeo/christian & islam 'created' patriarchal issues, but they've certainly perpetuated and exacerbated them

 

[DaveXA]

they 'can' be unpacked separately as they deal with different targets
BUT
they all stem broadly from cultural patriarchy and religion has been the big engine of most culture
most every culture started with a pantheism and female gods (and bi and fluid gods) were part of those religions
then 3 major religions (or 2 plus 1) became patriarchal monotheisms - - that's not to say judeo/christian & islam 'created' patriarchal issues, but they've certainly perpetuated and exacerbated them

Of course they did, and they would be wrong for doing so. All religions are made up of people, and people tend to screw stuff up and get things wrong. That's less an indictment of religions and more an indictment of people doing things contrary to religious teachings. It happens all the time. I know this all too well in my experience as a former minister.

 

[Taurus]

Just for the heck of it, I'll start and we'll see where it goes.

My friend David. Was the Bible in your hand created by people or Yahweh?

 

[Dago]

There's poleing involved here? I'm piqued.

Well I know I like it when someone piques my pole

 

[RKNSaint]

David, we know you care. You've said as much many times. We even appreciate that you care.

That said, everyone has to find their own way. I'm sure if this hits home for someone, they will PM you. Wish you the best and appreciate your sincerity. I'll leave this thread up, but let's keep it here and all will be cool.

Everyone finding their own way can't be highlighted enough. I was recently at a New Testament discussion and the speaker is a pretty well known scholar. During the Q&A someone asked about his approach to witnessing to people. His answer was he is all for it. He travels extensively and when he gets on a plane the inevitable "what do you do for a living" question comes his way. When he replies he is a NT Scholar and they are interested in hearing and learning about it he engages with them. If they offer no signal they have further interest he just as easily lets it go. Sure, go forth and spread the word but being aggressive or otherwise pushy doesn't seem to align with at least how I interpret those passages.

 

[SystemShock]

But they do need to be unpacked separately. They are all not the same thing, and the intensity, cause and frequency of each of those issues varies throughout history. Some cultures have bigger problems with these issues than others. The historical backdrop will color people's views and experiences. The root causes and cultural norms of the times have to be taken into consideration when discussing tricky subjects. And because they happened doesn't mean God approved of them. But like I said earlier. This isn't a religious theology thread. We can visit these questions in pm or a separate thread.

All I ask for is fair consideration. I'm fine with rebuttals, but I'm not fine with having a one-sided debate. I'm not saying you're doing that now, but in my experience, I've had people attempt to do that with me, and I won't engage with someone who won't have a truly open dialogue with me. Regardless, it's going to take a new thread and lengthy posts to cover what needs to be covered to do the topics justice. I'm not going to be able to cover all of that in a short time frame, so expect it to be a lengthy thread.

We can unpack them separately if you want, and we can look at the historical and cultural backdrop, and somewhat determine intensity, cause and frequency; but inevitably, what we are going to find, is that a) the text in the Bible does reflect the history and culture of the time (women should be silent, homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned to death, etc) and b) our values have changed.

As far as God approving or not approving of these actions, the first obvious question is, is the Bible the word of God? If the Bible is the word of God, then it follows that, at best, God doesn't disapprove of those actions. The Bible goes to great lengths to tell people what to do and not to do, and it is very specific in things God disapproves of, many of them rather trivial, yet it says nothing about slavery being wrong (it actually tells you how to enslave people and who to buy them from), or stoning people to death being wrong (other than perhaps you should be righteous before you do so, although it seemed that was just a way to outsmart Pharisees) .

But, if you want to unpack them separately, we can start with homosexuality, since the Bible straight up condemns homosexuality. Do you believe homosexuals can inherit the kingdom of God?

 

[Heathen Saint]

But I wonder, if he were Muslim and was proselytizing in the same fashion, would you still make fun of him?

That’s actually a great question.


The response would probably be much more inflammatory considering it isn’t the dominant religion here. There’s also a decent case to be made that he would be banned pretty quickly.

 

[Bleu Raeder]

Just for the heck of it, I'll start and we'll see where it goes.

My friend David. Was the Bible in your hand created by people or Yahweh?

You asked him before. Surely he remembers the dinosaur thread?

 

[St. Widge]

You asked him before. Surely he remembers the dinosaur thread?

Dinosaur thread? Never heard of it.

 

[DaveXA]

We can unpack them separately if you want, and we can look at the historical and cultural backdrop, and somewhat determine intensity, cause and frequency; but inevitably, what we are going to find, is that a) the text in the Bible does reflect the history and culture of the time (women should be silent, homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned to death, etc) and b) our values have changed.

As far as God approving or not approving of these actions, the first obvious question is, is the Bible the word of God? If the Bible is the word of God, then it follows that, at best, God doesn't disapprove of those actions. The Bible goes to great lengths to tell people what to do and not to do, and it is very specific in things God disapproves of, many of them rather trivial, yet it says nothing about slavery being wrong (it actually tells you how to enslave people and who to buy them from), or stoning people to death being wrong (other than perhaps you should be righteous before you do so, although it seemed that was just a way to outsmart Pharisees) .

But, if you want to unpack them separately, we can start with homosexuality, since the Bible straight up condemns homosexuality. Do you believe homosexuals can inherit the kingdom of God?

I'd like to either discuss this via pm, or do this in a different venue. We would have to agree on some basic ground rules before taking this on. Considering I'm still looking for work and my time is limited, it will take a while for me to work through all of the considerations of each issue, including homosexuality. So, pm or a thread for specifically a serious religious theology discussion. I feel like I've gotten away from enjoying this thread for what it is. So, I'd like to discuss this in a different thread or venue.