COVID-19 Outbreak Information Updates (Reboot) [over 150.000,000 US cases (est.), 6,422,520 US hospitilizations, 1,148,691 US deaths.] (7 Viewers)

[Saintman2884]

I disagree with that

I still don’t think anything would have changed if we knew from jump it was a lab leak or natural

I can’t see what difference it would make to the denier/anti vax crowd

Oh, I think it makes a huge amount of difference because if wed known 2-3 years ago or had some suggestions that Chinese virulogy lab were testing and experimenting on gain-of-function Coronavirus and whether the leak happened accidentally or inadvertently, they still forked up and their incompetence, sloppiness, or bureaucratic inefficiency caused the world's worst, most deadliest pandemic since H1N1 *Spanish Flu " and now, those who were infected, or had loved ones who died, tens of millions of people, now they have someone to blame instead of this murky, sort of plausible, possible theory or explanation that the viral outbreak was natural and unavoidable.

If it ever gets out that Covid-19 couldve been avoided, prevented from happening in the first place, the variables change radically and millions of people will want a lot of arses to sting. And since China is our biggest trading partner, and holds a huge trade deficit that cutting them off would lead to an immediate worldwide recession or depression, a lot of political, economic, and financial vested interests are determined to prevent too many influential lawmakers, or intelligence agencies coming to that inevitable conclusion and China has made moves in regards to not allowing outside investigators to come in and verify their alibis, which suggest a cover-up or that they legimately have something to hide and they've long since have recognized the geopolitical, or economic tsunami that would occur if the worst possible scenario did get out about their groas, apocalyptic-scale forkup.

 

[Saintman2884]

Most likely...potential...maybe...possible...who knows? Lol.

If the Chinese were a little more cooperative in allowing WHO investigators or inspectors into that Wuhan lab and get a better sense of whether lab safety protocols were followed or ignored, these intelligent assessments might be and sound a lot more definitive. "Best guess" summations, or hypothetical probabilities are the best we have to work with right now because China, being an authoritian, one-party Communist state, behaves and acts like they have something serious and earth-shaking to hide that will tens of millions people worldwide very, very angry and pissed at them.

 

[Saintman2884]

The deniers and anti-vaxxers were the ones who politicized it.

Brandon, if its discovered that Chinese incompetence, ineptness or stupidity caused this planet's most deadliest, existential accidentally caused the Covid-19 to leak out into the general public and then infect, kill tens of millions of people worldwide, yes, it will be politicized by a lot of people pissed off that a foreign government allowed this to occur and tried to cover it up extensively and covertly because they feared the unimaginable backlash. A lot of people will blame China and they will be right to blame them or hold them accountable, because if not for their stupidity, incompetence, the deniers and anti-vaxxers wouldn't be having to justify not taking jabs because there would be no worldwide pandemic.

 

[Saintman2884]

i am of the position that folks well above my pay grade are making plans/determinations as to what to do next.

We entrust our government to handle, as they see fit. If we dont care for results, we vote.

Except, I don't see the approaches changing too terribly much even if a majority of Americans got pissed by our government not doing enough to handle or get to the bottom of who forked up, where it originated, or how do we punish a foreign government for its gross negligence, mass-scale stupidity, and sloppiness that infected and killed tens of millions people and irrevocably damaged, altered countless lives. Electing new leaders or a new admininistration wouldn't necessarily being awareness or accountability because there are global, geopolitical issues that supersede what Joe Biden or hell, even Donald Trump would like or wish they could do. One is international trade, geopolitical or military alliances or free-trade agreements.

Even if China is guilty as sin and our government's response is pathetically lukewarm or ineffective, or insufficient, simply electing or voting a new president or senators or congressman won't necessarily change or alter the problem and Chinese leaders likely know that and or counting on that calculation, their hands are likely tied even if their personally pissed. You can cut off Russia from the world economy because their irrational, meglomaniacal dictator is annoyed or pissed a once-historical and culturally diverse region as Ukraine doesn't want to be part of Russia anymore and decides to invade, maybe gas prices and wheat prices shoot up somewhat but the damage, long-term, can be largely mitigated. Cut off China from the world stage and the immense, extensive financial, technological benefits and partnerships they produce for our globalised economy, you'd be amazed at what 99.9% of most Western politicians and leaders are willing to let them get away with. Voting doesn't change these sets of equatations in our country's political system.

The complexities and nuances of international trade in of itself exists as its own separate issue and doesn't really take into consideration whether one country is an authoritian dictatorship, a parliamentary democracy, or a representative government(which is what the U.S. is and what most of our Founding Fathers wanted and intended).

 

[bigdaddysaints]

As for Facebook, Twitter and Joe Biden, that's a whole 'nuther thread but yeah there should be some sort of reckoning on how our media machine handled Covid. It'll never happen of course and will only get worse but massive failures abound in our major institutions.

that's exactly the problem. it still seems you are blaming cover up of something that hasn't been proven, that's purely speculation. there is as much evidence that it wasn't leaked than there is evidence that it was leaked. you WANT it to be China lab leak so you can be like "I told you so". but there is just not enough evidence to support it, and there probably never will because we all know China isn't gonna let us even entertain a real investigation. I guess that puts it in the "if they don't cooperate then they are guilty" category.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

that's exactly the problem. it still seems you are blaming cover up of something that hasn't been proven, that's purely speculation. there is as much evidence that it wasn't leaked than there is evidence that it was leaked. you WANT it to be China lab leak so you can be like "I told you so". but there is just not enough evidence to support it, and there probably never will because we all know China isn't gonna let us even entertain a real investigation. I guess that puts it in the "if they don't cooperate then they are guilty" category.

Well I said it was for another thread because its a much broader topic than just the origin of the virus. But sticking to that particular theme it's not that I am rooting for the lab leak theory to be proven (though I think it makes sense) but my complaint is that even raising the theory was treated as Alex Jones level batshirt crazy talk (and kinda racist) by the legacy and digital media. And now half of the US agencies that have looked at it say, "Yeah our best guess is that's what happened."

Same thing with masks or closing schools. Any deviation from the dominant media narrative got you painted as a lunatic and now we're finding out that maybe we should've been a little more open minded to alternate POVs.

I would like to think we will collectively learn from our mistakes, but as I said, I'm sure it will only get worse.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

Well I said it was for another thread because its a much broader topic than just the origin of the virus. But sticking to that particular theme it's not that I am rooting for the lab leak theory to be proven (though I think it makes sense) but my complaint is that even raising the theory was treated as Alex Jones level batshirt crazy talk (and kinda racist) by the legacy and digital media. And now half of the US agencies that have looked at it say, "Yeah our best guess is that's what happened."

Same thing with masks or closing schools. Any deviation from the dominant media narrative got you painted as a lunatic and now we're finding out that maybe we should've been a little more open minded to alternate POVs.

I would like to think we will collectively learn from our mistakes, but as I said, I'm sure it will only get worse.

There are times where being on the same page is more important than being on the right page.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Covid was the top cause of death in the line of duty for American law enforcement for the third year in a row in 2022, according to a recent report, though the pace has slowed.

When the pandemic first hit, many law enforcement officers did what they could to lower the risks of catching Covid-19 – taking some reports over the phone rather than in person, trying to limit contact within departments and with the public.

Working on the front lines made some face-to-face contact unavoidable – and, as a result, hundreds of law enforcement officers died as Covid swept through the US. In 2020, there were at least 346 confirmed Covid deaths in the line of duty, and at least 301 work-associated deaths from Covid in 2021.

The actual mortality rate from Covid among law enforcement is assuredly higher, due to undercounting when tests were scarce and because reports like these only include line-of-duty deaths.

The total number of Covid deaths in 2022 was significantly lower than the previous two years, with 70 deaths in the line of duty, but it still outpaced all other causes of mortality on the job, according to a report from the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund (NLEOMF).

“It’s encouraging to see that the number-one cause of death over the last three years running, Covid-19, has really dropped dramatically,” said Bill Alexander, NLEOMF’s executive director. “But the reality is that we’re still facing a significant number of men and women who are dying [from] Covid in connection with their job.”

As emergency measures enacted during the pandemic end, a key way of counting line-of-duty deaths from Covid will soon disappear, making it harder to discern the virus’s toll. It will also signal the loss of benefits for families of officers who die because they contract Covid in the course of their duties………

Covid was top line-of-duty death for US police for third year running in 2022

Report shows pace has slowed, however, with 70 law enforcement deaths recorded in the line of duty

www.theguardian.com

 

[Saintman2884]

There are times where being on the same page is more important than being on the right page.

Even then, when you have people believing in half-truths, unconfirmed rumors and innuendos from the mainstream scientific community being forcibly or strenuously pushed on most people, because while they usually be right most times, their not being accurate or honest or totally truthful, and the people we label *fringe, racist-paranoia, conspiracy theorists" are pushing ideas and suggestions that everyone denounces at first, but later on, we discover 1-2 years later, some of their ideas, arguments or suspicions were right or may have some merit, but because MSM media labeled them the "wrong people", our collective egos won't let or permit us to admit we may have been mistaken or incorrect, and we'll continue to fight them because we realize the stakes in what might happen if some in the mainstream give THEM any credence, who knows what else most Americans or Europeans might start questioning other previously-unquestioned notions or societal taboos.

Even if those times where being on the same page is more important than the right one still means your argument is more flawed and (even wrong) and forcing a type of socio-political conformity where one goes up against or combats leads to being ostracized, demonized, and unnecessarily discredited publicly and professionally.

That doesn't sound like too much of a free, open society, IMHO. But then again, worldwide pandemics or severe, critical existential health emergencies can make even the most free, tolerant, democratic societies almost semi-authoritatian overnight.

I can see why The Last of Us video game/TV series adaptation is such a very apt, modern parable about just how fragile, and brittle the veneer of societal pressures and breakdown can occur when a fungal-parisitic based viral pandemic 100x worse and apocalyptic then Covid comes along and within maybe a few months, modern world crumbles and gets set back maybe several hundred years or so.

 

[Sailorsaint]

Even then, when you have people believing in half-truths, unconfirmed rumors and innuendos from the mainstream scientific community being forcibly or strenuously pushed on most people, because while they usually be right most times, their not being accurate or honest or totally truthful, and the people we label *fringe, racist-paranoia, conspiracy theorists" are pushing ideas and suggestions that everyone denounces at first, but later on, we discover 1-2 years later, some of their ideas, arguments or suspicions were right or may have some merit, but because MSM media labeled them the "wrong people", our collective egos won't let or permit us to admit we may have been mistaken or incorrect, and we'll continue to fight them because we realize the stakes in what might happen if some in the mainstream give THEM any credence, who knows what else most Americans or Europeans might start questioning other previously-unquestioned notions or societal taboos.

Even if those times where being on the same page is more important than the right one still means your argument is more flawed and (even wrong) and forcing a type of socio-political conformity where one goes up against or combats leads to being ostracized, demonized, and unnecessarily discredited publicly and professionally.

That doesn't sound like too much of a free, open society, IMHO. But then again, worldwide pandemics or severe, critical existential health emergencies can make even the most free, tolerant, democratic societies almost semi-authoritatian overnight.

I can see why The Last of Us video game/TV series adaptation is such a very apt, modern parable about just how fragile, and brittle the veneer of societal pressures and breakdown can occur when a fungal-parisitic based viral pandemic 100x worse and apocalyptic then Covid comes along and within maybe a few months, modern world crumbles and gets set back maybe several hundred years or so.

Two things...calling something a conspiracy theory has always held a negative connotation, like UFO. UFO is just something that is unidentified that is flying but eveyone goes straight to aliens. A conspiracy theory is just that, a theory of conspiracy. We can theorize about anything and be proven correct or incorrect later on, that's why it's a theory. But, throw "conspiracy theory" out there and everyone goes straight to "nutjob". Second, the only thing I disagree with in your post is labelling the scientific community "mainstream scientific community". Another negative connotation that brings thoughts of "incorrectly or deceptive" information being brought forward. The scientific community as a whole is not there to deceive the public but to put forward information gleaned from research, not hunches. The "conspiracy theorists" throwing crap against the wall early on without any proof to back up their assertions did nothing but sow dissention among people. It's one thing to theorize and postulate, it's another to outright accuse and/or blame someone for something that was novel and had to be studied for the entire body of information to become known.

 

[Saintman2884]

Two things...calling something a conspiracy theory has always held a negative connotation, like UFO. UFO is just something that is unidentified that is flying but eveyone goes straight to aliens. A conspiracy theory is just that, a theory of conspiracy. We can theorize about anything and be proven correct or incorrect later on, that's why it's a theory. But, throw "conspiracy theory" out there and everyone goes straight to "nutjob". Second, the only thing I disagree with in your post is labelling the scientific community "mainstream scientific community". Another negative connotation that brings thoughts of "incorrectly or deceptive" information being brought forward. The scientific community as a whole is not there to deceive the public but to put forward information gleaned from research, not hunches. The "conspiracy theorists" throwing crap against the wall early on without any proof to back up their assertions did nothing but sow dissention among people. It's one thing to theorize and postulate, it's another to outright accuse and/or blame someone for something that was novel and had to be studied for the entire body of information to become known.

Ive always said and believed that UFOs and extraterrestrial beings aren't the same thing, but are two, separate concepts. One reason why most people tend to jump to "aliens and UFO's" is often a matter of subjective opinion based around the notion that honesty, I still don't think, in 2023, we have anything close to the sophisticated saucer-shaped UFO's move, coordinate their movements in physics-defying motions or at speeds that are WAY, WAY beyond mankind's current technological capabilities based on what many eyewitnesses said they saw these objects do. If that's the case, we're talking about alien civilizations that are hundreds, maybe thousands of years ahead of us in every meaningful scientific, technological and societal category and that realization, or contrast, likely gets made painfully aware to them if, whenever, or however they come here.

Believing in UFO's or extraterrestrials isn't the same thing as believing that AIDS was created in a US Plum Island Lab over the course of several decades and let out to predominantly affect, sicken, and kill millions of homosexuals, African-Americans, Latino-American. Besides, that nutjob theory, according to some Cold War CIA historians, may have begun or been proposed as a anti-West, anti-American deliberate misinformation campaign smear job by KGB spy masters in the late 1970's.

FWIW, my other arguments are more based around the idea of paradigm shifts, how throughout history, seemingly radical, unorthodox scientific theories get formulated, created, analyzed and then presented to the then-wider contemporary mainstream scientific communities and it gets ridiculed, demonized, sneered at, and its creators or scientists get discredited, only for the next generation or two finds out these discoveries were not only plausible, their wholly valid. Evolution didnt just begin with Darwin, for example. His father, Erasmus Darwin, had some pretty, radical notions that weren't exactly taken at face value or accepted by most, during his lifetime.

When you examine the case of Galileo and his theories about Earth not being the center of the universe, and was instead one of many, different universes, what's the big secret thats missing that could explain how his theories were right and how if it had been known at the time, Galileo wouldn't have been forced to recant his ideas? Gravity or gravitational force that was postulated and proven scientifically valid by Isaac Newton and Johannes Kepler. Newton and Kepler's theories, essentially proved that Galileo's theories a century before were correct because they explained in explicit detail, how every planet in our solar system revolves around the Sun, and how centrifugal, gravitational forces are different and how they effect and explain why it takes longer for Mars to do a full circling of the Sun then Earth and how our solar system is balanced together. They filled in the blanks that were unknown to scientists and mathematicians of Galileo or Bruno's time.

As an historian, it amazes how so much of what the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment ideals were just "rediscovering" what had been common knowledge to the Greco-Roman world of philosophes, mathematicians, and thinkers like Pythagorus, Aristotle, Ptolemy of Alexandria, Socrates, Plato, Ovid, Virgil, or Thucydides. A lot of their scientific theories were very similar to many of the later European philosophers and scientists.

Ancient Roman class socio-economic class structure would have been *Candyland" for people like Marx and Engels if one knows or has read about how most Roman plebians, slaves lived in Third World-esque slums, experienced crippling poverty, and how ancient Roman imperial infrastructure would be the most industrialized Europe would enjoy until the 19th century. When the western Roman Empire decayed, crumbled and fell by the end of 5th century C.E., that was a perilous systems collapse that set science, notions of progress, rational discourse, politics, natural philosophy back almost 1,000 years or so.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

Even then, when you have people believing in half-truths, unconfirmed rumors and innuendos from the mainstream scientific community being forcibly or strenuously pushed on most people, because while they usually be right most times, their not being accurate or honest or totally truthful, and the people we label *fringe, racist-paranoia, conspiracy theorists" are pushing ideas and suggestions that everyone denounces at first, but later on, we discover 1-2 years later, some of their ideas, arguments or suspicions were right or may have some merit, but because MSM media labeled them the "wrong people", our collective egos won't let or permit us to admit we may have been mistaken or incorrect, and we'll continue to fight them because we realize the stakes in what might happen if some in the mainstream give THEM any credence, who knows what else most Americans or Europeans might start questioning other previously-unquestioned notions or societal taboos.

Even if those times where being on the same page is more important than the right one still means your argument is more flawed and (even wrong) and forcing a type of socio-political conformity where one goes up against or combats leads to being ostracized, demonized, and unnecessarily discredited publicly and professionally.

That doesn't sound like too much of a free, open society, IMHO. But then again, worldwide pandemics or severe, critical existential health emergencies can make even the most free, tolerant, democratic societies almost semi-authoritatian overnight.

I can see why The Last of Us video game/TV series adaptation is such a very apt, modern parable about just how fragile, and brittle the veneer of societal pressures and breakdown can occur when a fungal-parisitic based viral pandemic 100x worse and apocalyptic then Covid comes along and within maybe a few months, modern world crumbles and gets set back maybe several hundred years or so.

Nothing we needed to do in the spring of 2020 was impacted by where or not it was a lab leak.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Canadian study finds border closures didn't really work - i.e. putting in a No Peeing section of the pool doesn't do any good

“People just assumed at the time that these measures were effective, but that’s not necessarily the case,” the paper’s lead author, Mathieu Poirier, said in a media release. Poirier is a social epidemiology professor at York and co-director of the Global Strategy Lab.

“Our study shows, using real-world data, that for most countries, in most situations, border closures are not going to be the best approach," he said.

New study casts doubt on effectiveness of COVID-19 border closures

A new study comparing data from 166 countries that closed their borders during the first 22 weeks of the pandemic says most targeted closures – aimed at travellers from COVID-19 hotspots – did little to curb the crisis. Total closures helped, but at a cost.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[Saintman2884]

Nothing we needed to do in the spring of 2020 was impacted by where or not it was a lab leak.

Whodat, unfortunately, if the accidental Wuhan lab leak theory does indeed gets analyzed, scrutinized by most Western intelligence agencies and they find more, concrete proof or strong evidence suggesting that it did happen, it does open some floodgates for a lot of angry, understandably hurt and engaged people who'll have a legitimate target to direct their ire at, because they will have been responsible for accidentally allowing the world's worst, and deadliest viral pandemic to kill, infect and permanently alter tens of millions of innocent lives, when it reasonably could've been prevented and avoided and you and me(and countless others) aren't having this conversation.

There's a lot of people worldwide who got sick, witnessed family members, relatives, friends who died in painful, agonizing deaths that are going to find it hard, if not next to inpossible to let go of the hatred and rage they'd feel towards the Chinese government and that particular sub-section of its scientific community and it would be almost unethical to try and say that rage wouldn't be justified.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

Whodat, unfortunately, if the accidental Wuhan lab leak theory does indeed gets analyzed, scrutinized by most Western intelligence agencies and they find more, concrete proof or strong evidence suggesting that it did happen, it does open some floodgates for a lot of angry, understandably hurt and engaged people who'll have a legitimate target to direct their ire at, because they will have been responsible for accidentally allowing the world's worst, and deadliest viral pandemic to kill, infect and permanently alter tens of millions of innocent lives, when it reasonably could've been prevented and avoided and you and me(and countless others) aren't having this conversation.

There's a lot of people worldwide who got sick, witnessed family members, relatives, friends who died in painful, agonizing deaths that are going to find it hard, if not next to inpossible to let go of the hatred and rage they'd feel towards the Chinese government and that particular sub-section of its scientific community and it would be almost unethical to try and say that rage wouldn't be justified.

Yes, and now we are getting to the time where getting mad at whoever is to blame is appropriate.

In the middle of the pandemic, we needed to get through the pandemic. Punishing who started it would have made that harder to do.

If the house is on fire, you don't argue about who started it, you put out the fire. There is time after it's put out to figure out who is to blame for it.