Hill vs Siemian why is there a debate? (1 Viewer)

[BayouSAINTJoe]

Oh, but that's going to need to be a two-way application, right? Will the people who complained about the O-line and the team's having middle school level WRs with Winston at the helm grant Taysom (or Trevor) those same caveats?

WIll the same people who trashed Winston and accused him of wasting field position while taking a 5yd sack from our own 23, while throwing to middle school level WRs excuse Taysom if he underperforms with the same level of talent...that's the question? I already know the answer.

 

[Saintamaniac]

Oh, but that's going to need to be a two-way application, right? Will the people who complained about the O-line and the team's having middle school level WRs with Winston at the helm grant Taysom (or Trevor) those same caveats?

No. I damn sure am not. If I and the others feel that Winston was the right choice for obvious reasons then that means we were wrong. It means we were wrong about saying it was unfair to Winston having to play behind a patchwork Oline and throw to undrafted free agent WR's and still light it up.

If I and others who felt the same way are wrong, why would we not have the same expectations for Hill that were put on Winston? We've been playing hard-nose defense, not turning the ball over and having good play-calling and execution. The defense is going to continue to do it's thing--they may even get better. I'll be looking for a maintaining of or an improvement in the offensive production. If we're wrong, it was Winston that was holding the offense back.

I really like being right which means I hate being wrong. I've never wanted to be more wrong than I might be because I feel that we have the best defense we've had in the Payton era and if the offense can be maintained or improved, we have a legitimate shot at making it to the playoffs and maybe even more.

You can bookmark this post. I will be back to claim my wrongness. If I'm wrong then we possibly win it all. I'd shave my left testicle with a dull razor to win it all. Admitting I was wrong would be a cake walk. But if I'm right.....well, we'll just see.

 

[NatureBoy]

It's a complicated matter that goes beyond who is more talented. It is a matter of how do we get our best players on the field. Of course, Taysom being ready comes in to play right now.

This weekend would seem to be a toss up. Trevor played well last weekend and with Taysom possibly rusty, he might be a better short term choice. I think long term, Taysom probably gets the shot.

A complication on the short term would be that Taysom started 2 games against the Falcons last year, so he has that knowledge in his favor. Knowing Sean's system better is in his favor too, although they say that Trevor is smart.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Trevor start against the Falcons, but with a big dose of Taysom at QB as well.

I heard Triplett on Sirius Fantasy Sports radio today. He was saying that part of Taysom's troubles last year was trying to be a pocket guy and going through multiples of reads. He's thinking that we will see a Taysom that goes through 2 reads then runs if nothing is there. He expects Taysom to be much more effective and efficient if he plays.

 

[Elvis]

WIll the same people who trashed Winston and accused him of wasting field position while taking a 5yd sack from our own 23, while throwing to middle school level WRs excuse Taysom if he underperforms with the same level of talent...that's the question? I already know the answer.

Since you're talking about me, I'll go ahead and reply. The answer to your question is that Taysom isn't the answer either. While you follow my posts around and down vote them for being critical of your savior Jameis, you fail to ever read that I'm critical of ALL of our QBs. I was critical of Drew last year because he couldn't throw deep anymore. You also fail to read the posts where I've said repeatedly that Jameis WON the QB battle in the preseason and deserved to be the starter this season. That doesn't mean I have to fall in line and drool all over a mediocre QB. I'm bummed for the guy, he should be starting, he earned it. It doesn't make him good and it doesn't make me want him to get a new contract next year. It certainly doesn't make me think Taysom is going to be any better. I think Siemian could be better at short and intermediate throws, but the super deep shots left the playbook with Jameis.

 

[No2DC]

It's a complicated matter that goes beyond who is more talented. It is a matter of how do we get our best players on the field. Of course, Taysom being ready comes in to play right now.

This weekend would seem to be a toss up. Trevor played well last weekend and with Taysom possibly rusty, he might be a better short term choice. I think long term, Taysom probably gets the shot.

A complication on the short term would be that Taysom started 2 games against the Falcons last year, so he has that knowledge in his favor. Knowing Sean's system better is in his favor too, although they say that Trevor is smart.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Trevor start against the Falcons, but with a big dose of Taysom at QB as well.

I heard Triplett on Sirius Fantasy Sports radio today. He was saying that part of Taysom's troubles last year was trying to be a pocket guy and going through multiples of reads. He's thinking that we will see a Taysom that goes through 2 reads then runs if nothing is there. He expects Taysom to be much more effective and efficient if he plays.

I would agree with that pre-concussion but I'm not sure running is the best idea for someone coming off a concussion protocol.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

Since you're talking about me, I'll go ahead and reply. The answer to your question is that Taysom isn't the answer either. While you follow my posts around and down vote them for being critical of your savior Jameis, you fail to ever read that I'm critical of ALL of our QBs. I was critical of Drew last year because he couldn't throw deep anymore. You also fail to read the posts where I've said repeatedly that Jameis WON the QB battle in the preseason and deserved to be the starter this season. That doesn't mean I have to fall in line and drool all over a mediocre QB. I'm bummed for the guy, he should be starting, he earned it. It doesn't make him good and it doesn't make me want him to get a new contract next year. It certainly doesn't make me think Taysom is going to be any better. I think Siemian could be better at short and intermediate throws, but the super deep shots left the playbook with Jameis.

Eh...I don't really follow all of your posts but I did think it was asinine to complain about taking a 4 yard sack from your own 23 on 3rd and long with the excuse of wasting field position...thats the type of scrutiny JW was up against from the "fanbase" every time he dropped back to throw the ball...I couldn't care less if the comment came from you personally but I use that as a highlight the level of BS we had to hear from the Jameis haters.

 

[Saintamaniac]

It wouldn't surprise me to see Trevor start against the Falcons, but with a big dose of Taysom at QB as well.

It would surprise the hell out of me that if Siemian is executing the offense, Payton started platooning him with Hill. I suspect that if Siemian gets the start, Payton will only use Hill in a situational capacity to minimize his contact and bring him back slowly. Then again, Payton is a super bowl winning head coach and I all I have is an opinion.

 

[Elvis]

Eh...I don't really follow all of your posts but I did think it was asinine to complain about taking a sack from your own 23 on 3rd and long with the excuse of wasting field position...thats the type of scrutiny JW was up against from the "fanbase" every time he dropped back to throw the ball...I couldn't care less if the comment came from you personally but I use that as a highlight the level of BS we had to hear from the Jameis haters.

He held the ball for 8 seconds and didn't leave the pocket to throw the ball away in a game where field position was important. It was dumb. Did you watch how Siemian was getting outside the tackles and throwing the ball away last week? That's what nearly all QBs do and while, to his credit, Jameis didn't force the throw, he did force the sack by hanging onto the ball too long. It's a reasonable criticism.

All of that said, Taysom wouldn't do it either. He'd run the ball without even trying to get to the third guy in his progression. That will expose him to injury and likely cost us a game because the game plan has to change more if he gets knocked out than it did when Jameis did.

Siemian, good or bad, should start. Book should be game day #2.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

He held the ball for 8 seconds and didn't leave the pocket to throw the ball away in a game where field position was important. It was dumb. Did you watch how Siemian was getting outside the tackles and throwing the ball away last week? That's what nearly all QBs do and while, to his credit, Jameis didn't force the throw, he did force the sack by hanging onto the ball too long. It's a reasonable criticism.

All of that said, Taysom wouldn't do it either. He'd run the ball without even trying to get to the third guy in his progression. That will expose him to injury and likely cost us a game because the game plan has to change more if he gets knocked out than it did when Jameis did.

Siemian, good or bad, should start. Book should be game day #2.

I think you're missing the point...it was a 4 yard sack from our OWN 23....there wasn't some huge field position shift as a result. Look, I get it, you don't like JW, didn't like the idea of JW being the starting QB, but don't hide behind BS excuses like this to justify your feelings....You didn't want him, its all good.

Edit...and like I said, I just use that post/exchange as a shining example...there were others. Folks come out with the canned he holds on to the ball too long or missing reads, or he's not audibling, or he's not calling protection or (....) to criticize JW's play WHILE WE WERE WINNING FOOTBALL GAMES BTW. Nobody said this about TH, don't plan on doing it either, just want to see what we have in him for an extended period of time. Just don't throw any wide open receivers on go routes into jumpballs and we'll be quiet

 

[onthurdays]

And yet showed nothing on the field in game time. Jameis did more with the second and third team than Hill did with the first team in the first preseason game and just killed it with the starters in the 2nd game. So much so that coach pulled him early. Then we dealt with Taysom looking lost after that.

We really need to stop trying to force square peg Taysom into the round hole that is a starting QB position.

You may want to go on youtube and rewatch the highlights of every Taysom throw during the jax preseason game where he lost the starting job. Looks better than what we saw from jameis all year

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

 

[Saintamaniac]

You may want to go on youtube and rewatch the highlights of every Taysom throw during the jax preseason game where he lost the starting job. Looks better than what we saw from jameis all year

 

[BoxerJoe]

I understand the headlines, I'm saying the headlines made some people overlook the actual performance and in that category, Jameis was better. I know the back and forth narrative, it's like the horse race polls in politics. Here are the numbers from camp:
• Taysom Hill: 9 completions in 15 attempts with one touchdown in full team drills. He also rushed for a touchdown. 143 for 220 and 6 interceptions in camp as a whole.

• Jameis Winston: 9 completions in 15 attempts with one touchdown. 155 for 235 with nine touchdowns and four interceptions in camp as a whole.
link: https://www.nola.com/sports/saints/article_0210d48c-06a7-11ec-a843-33ee244040d9.html
These are preseason game stats: https://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/new-orleans-saints/stats?type=pre
Nevertheless, this is all a mute point now and Taysom will get another chance to earn the job. It's Sean call and I'm cool with that.

Player	Att	Cmp	Pct	Yds	YPA	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	Lg	Sack	Loss	Rate
Taysom Hill	32	19	59.4	219	6.8	1	3.1	1	3.1	28	3	26	77.5
Jameis Winston	22	16	72.7	219	10.0	3	13.6	1	4.5	43t	1	8	124.8

Pre-season stats are irrelevant here as the argument was whether or not the QB competition was neck & neck and by Nick Underhill's and every other reporter's stance, it was for a rather considerable amount of time. I said previously here in this thread that Winston started to first pull away in pre-season and locked it up with his performance against the Jaguars. All the pre-season stats do is help support that.

WIll the same people who trashed Winston and accused him of wasting field position while taking a 5yd sack from our own 23, while throwing to middle school level WRs excuse Taysom if he underperforms with the same level of talent...that's the question? I already know the answer.

So you want to Taysom supporters to stay consistent but you, as a Winston supporter, don't want to have to apply that to yourself. No surprise there. This type of hypocrisy has become all too prevalent. I foresee a lot of childish back and forth arguing should Taysom get named the starter.

Taysom throws a ball up for grabs that the Saints come down with...

Jameis supporters: Okay, Taysom lovers, criticize that like you did when Jameis made a play like that.
Taysom supporters: Okay, Jameis lovers, defend that like you did when Jameis made a throw like that.
Jameis supporters: Well, y'all go first.
Taysom supporters: No, y'all go first.

No. I damn sure am not. If I and the others feel that Winston was the right choice for obvious reasons then that means we were wrong. It means we were wrong about saying it was unfair to Winston having to play behind a patchwork Oline and throw to undrafted free agent WR's and still light it up.

If I and others who felt the same way are wrong, why would we not have the same expectations for Hill that were put on Winston? We've been playing hard-nose defense, not turning the ball over and having good play-calling and execution. The defense is going to continue to do it's thing--they may even get better. I'll be looking for a maintaining of or an improvement in the offensive production. If we're wrong, it was Winston that was holding the offense back.

I really like being right which means I hate being wrong. I've never wanted to be more wrong than I might be because I feel that we have the best defense we've had in the Payton era and if the offense can be maintained or improved, we have a legitimate shot at making it to the playoffs and maybe even more.

You can bookmark this post. I will be back to claim my wrongness. If I'm wrong then we possibly win it all. I'd shave my left testicle with a dull razor to win it all. Admitting I was wrong would be a cake walk. But if I'm right.....well, we'll just see.

Everyone agreed that naming Winston the starter was the right call and that he won the job fair and square. That doesn't mean you can't root for Taysom to come in and light it up. It also doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't stay consistent with evaluating the QB's performance.

LOL. I think I recognize that gif. Is that Gary Payton reacting to a Jordan Kilganon dunk?

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

Pre-season stats are irrelevant here as the argument was whether or not the QB competition was neck & neck and by Nick Underhill's and every other reporter's stance, it was for a rather considerable amount of time. I said previously here in this thread that Winston started to first pull away in pre-season and locked it up with his performance against the Jaguars. All the pre-season stats do is help support that.


So you want to Taysom supporters to stay consistent but you, as a Winston supporter, don't want to have to apply that to yourself. No surprise there. This type of hypocrisy has become all too prevalent. I foresee a lot of childish back and forth arguing should Taysom get named the starter.

Taysom throws a ball up for grabs that the Saints come down with...

Jameis supporters: Okay, Taysom lovers, criticize that like you did when Jameis made a play like that.
Taysom supporters: Okay, Jameis lovers, defend that like you did when Jameis made a throw like that.
Jameis supporters: Well, y'all go first.
Taysom supporters: No, y'all go first.


Everyone agreed that naming Winston the starter was the right call and that he won the job fair and square. That doesn't mean you can't root for Taysom to come in and light it up. It also doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't stay consistent with evaluating the QB's performance.

LOL. I think I recognize that gif. Is that Gary Payton reacting to a Jordan Kilganon dunk?

Bruh what are you talking about, I want Taysom to start, either get it all over with or build the legend, pretty sure that was my quote: he does good = great, he does bad = oh well...what I'm talking about is the incessant overanalyzing every decision, every incompletion, every throw away that came from the ABJ crowd. Promise you this, I don't speak for all of the "JW backers" (odd since I thought they were all Saints, but fine...I'll accept the label), but I have no intention of peeling through every play TH makes or not makes...I don't have the energy for it...don't really care enough to do so...I'm not that invested in it. TB 100% H my JW defense was pretty much born out of the over criticism of JW, since you guys hated him so much, I supported him even more than I planned on.

 

[Elvis]

Bruh what are you talking about, I want Taysom to start, either get it all over with or build the legend, pretty sure that was my quote: he does good = great, he does bad = oh well...what I'm talking about is the incessant overanalyzing every decision, every incompletion, every throw away that came from the ABJ crowd. Promise you this, I don't speak for all of the "JW backers" (odd since I thought they were all Saints, but fine...I'll accept the label), but I have no intention of peeling through every play TH makes or not makes...I don't have the energy for it...don't really care enough to do so...I'm not that invested in it. TB 100% H my JW defense was pretty much born out of the over criticism of JW, since you guys hated him so much, I supported him even more than I planned on.

You talk like there isn’t 5 years of games of Jameis Winston being a starting professional QB to add to the games he’s played here. There is no such games for Hill, only backup duty on a team built for another QB and he hasn’t really earned anything more. To be fair, Jameis’ time here has also been with a team built for another QB. Judging them equally isn’t even logical. Jameis #1 overall pick with 5 years staring experience vs Taysom UDFA with 4 career starts? That it’s even a debate is embarrassing.