Hill vs Siemian why is there a debate? (1 Viewer)

[SaintsBrazil]

Choosing between a career back up or a gadget player, or otherwise hoping that a fourth round rookie can step up, is the very definition of quarterback hell.

Except it takes more than one season to be QB hell. . . unless maybe you have two quarterbacks named Billy Joe on your team at the same time. That might do it. (We still be the Cowboys that 3 -13 season)

 

[CHI-TOWNSAINT]

Then the next injury report we'll hear is that Hill is out with a damaged rotator cuff due to throwing too many 'go routes'!

I guess then we don’t have to worry about a debate

 

[AARPSaint]

Coaching makes a tremendous difference in the NFL. If Kubiak was the coach while Siemian was the QB, that's concerning for us. That said, the Saints seem to be able to coach up QBs quite effectively.

 

[No2DC]

If you are referring to my posts, I specifically said this...

"Jameis didn't start to slowly pull away until about the time pre-season started and then when he threw those 2 TDs to Callaway against Jacksonville is when there was no doubt he had earned the starting job. I'm not saying this will be indicative of how Taysom does as starter now, but he was right there with Jameis in training camp for a good while."

That was all factual. You have to go pretty deep into Conspiracy Land to say that Payton had all the reporters in on presenting an extremely close QB competition throughout most of training camp to the fans. Everyone agreed that it was over and that Jameis won the battle fair and square, but that didn't happen until the Jacksonville pre-season game. That all said, I understand the reasons why some want Siemian to start now instead of Taysom and I wouldn't be mad at all if Trevor were to get the call this Sunday. No matter who gets the starting nod, we should all continue to root for the team and hope for more victories.

And no one is happy Jameis got hurt. That's a horrible spin to try to negatively paint anyone who didn't 100% believe he was THE guy right from the jump or even as the season progressed as a bad human being. Unless I missed it, Taysom supporters didn't say anything like, "I guess the Taysom haters are happy that he got a concussion because now he won't be stealing snaps from Jameis."

I don't have time to pull up the camp stats but Jameis had more TDs in camp and in the preseason than Hill, just read the newspaper reports and not the "it was close" headline. I may be wrong but a whole lot of posters who had become quiet all of a sudden got really excited again after he got hurt. Now I know there are multiple guys (I'm talking about the ones who admit it, no the beat around the bush folks) who did not want him to be the guy. You can search my posts I have never said anything negative about Taysom when he got hurt and I think he's a great weapon. I just do not think he's a pocket passer. My recent post acknowledges he's getting another shot, which is fine but don't start making up stuff.

 

[Stalwart385]

Now we are dealing with revisionist history. The "it was close" was a narrative not backed up by the preseason game stats or in camp. I get the Taysom supporters want him to get another shot, which is fine but at no point were either of them better than Jameis (14 TDs-3 INTs) with a 6-2 record throwing to one of the worst receiving groups in the league, an O line with people in and out, and away from home for more than a month. If we had decent receivers he would not have had to run so much. I feel like some of you were happy Jameis got hurt and are routing for him not to be back with the team. Sad.

Camp reports directly back it up. It was back and forth day to day with no one taking the lead. Jameis won in the end, that preseason game he started solidified it. He's been playing fine this season. Taysom will have to step in now. Lets root for the guy.

 

[BoxerJoe]

I don't have time to pull up the camp stats but Jameis had more TDs in camp and in the preseason than Hill, just read the newspaper reports and not the "it was close" headline. I may be wrong but a whole lot of posters who had become quiet all of a sudden got really excited again after he got hurt. Now I know there are multiple guys (I'm talking about the ones who admit it, no the beat around the bush folks) who did not want him to be the guy. You can search my posts I have never said anything negative about Taysom when he got hurt and I think he's a great weapon. I just do not think he's a pocket passer. My recent post acknowledges he's getting another shot, which is fine but don't start making up stuff.

It wasn't just headlines. Like Stalwart385 said just above here, there were camp reports of Jameis looking better one day and Taysom looking better the next. In the tweet I posted earlier in this thread, Nick Underhill said at the time that every reporter who was at every practice had it as too close to call. People's opinions can vary, but I think Nick has shown to have a large amount of fairness and integrity in his reporting. Were all the various reporters lying - a part of a conspiracy - with their reporting of how close the camp battle was? That would seem like a really far out there take.

I never said nor was I implying that you said anything bad (on a personal type level) in regard to Taysom when he got injured. That was just to mention no one stooped to the "I bet my fellow Saints fans are glad that someone on the team got injured" mentality that some have tried to cast here now on those who may not have been incredibly enthusiastic over Jameis as THE guy going forward.

We are where we are now though. Jameis is unfortunately done for the season, the trade deadline has passed, and now it's either Taysom's or Trevor's time step in as the new starter, hopefully with very positive results.

 

[ThrowbackSaintXXL]

Whether Hill is true QB material or not, this statement is just not completely true. He has not had 4 years of prepping as just a QB. It has been said over and over how many different meeting rooms he has to be in during the week because of all his roles. He also has never gotten full backup preparation snaps in practice for the same reason. The only time he got full practice snaps was when DB was out and Hill started some games.

He had different roles & was in so many other meeting rooms bcuz CSP found that he was better in those other roles than playing exclusively @ QB. If he were better @ QB he woulda been mainly utilized there

 

[Sumdude34]

This may be a bold take but I don't like Taysom in the backfield with Kamara. Their RPOs pretty much take Alvin out of the game.

It should work perfectly. It should be a pick your poison situation. But much like Jalen Hurts in Philly, Taysom keeps way too much and just leaves Alvin with scraps when he knows a play isn't going to work. I feel like Alvin has had some of his lowest touch totals with TH at QB.

 

[Saintamaniac]

I feel like some of you were happy Jameis got hurt and are routing for him not to be back with the team. Sad.

I understand this feeling but I don't think it's that cut and dry. I don't think those folks are actually "happy" per se that Winston got hurt. I think they are happy to possibly see Hill get an opportunity to prove them right.

From the start, I felt that Winston gave us the better chance to win especially given his talents and the coaching and mentoring he got from Payton and Brees. To me and others, it seemed that some people were ready for any little mistake that Winston made to yell "see I told you he hadn't changed " or "he's the same Winston I thought he was."

Winston wasn't free from guilt for making some of the plays that they were pointing to. The thing is, coaching was fixing that. Winston wasn't taking the chances he did in the 1st 2-3 games. His deep balls were a thing of beauty. He began to realize that getting the ball to AK41 was just as good as hitting on a 20 yard pass. The running game was making his play-action deadly and he was using his legs. In the process, we were winning games with turnover free, ball control football and tough defense. And there were still people who refused to or found it difficult to give Winston any credit despite throwing 14 TD's with 3 interceptions to undrafted free-agent WR's behind a patchwork Oline.

Well now the dog has caught the car so to speak. We'll see if those microscopes still works if Hill struggles should he get the nod from Payton. It won't be hard to spot the excuses. Can't complain about the offensive line and can't complain about the WR's. That's been done to no avail.

 

[BoxerJoe]

Well now the dog has caught the car so to speak. We'll see if those microscopes still works if Hill struggles should he get the nod from Payton. It won't be hard to spot the excuses. Can't complain about the offensive line and can't complain about the WR's. That's been done to no avail.

Oh, but that's going to need to be a two-way application, right? Will the people who complained about the O-line and the team's having middle school level WRs with Winston at the helm grant Taysom (or Trevor) those same caveats?

 

[No2DC]

It wasn't just headlines. Like Stalwart385 said just above here, there were camp reports of Jameis looking better one day and Taysom looking better the next. In the tweet I posted earlier in this thread, Nick Underhill said at the time that every reporter who was at every practice had it as too close to call. People's opinions can vary, but I think Nick has shown to have a large amount of fairness and integrity in his reporting. Were all the various reporters lying - a part of a conspiracy - with their reporting of how close the camp battle was? That would seem like a really far out there take.

I never said nor was I implying that you said anything bad (on a personal type level) in regard to Taysom when he got injured. That was just to mention no one stooped to the "I bet my fellow Saints fans are glad that someone on the team got injured" mentality that some have tried to cast here now on those who may not have been incredibly enthusiastic over Jameis as THE guy going forward.

We are where we are now though. Jameis is unfortunately done for the season, the trade deadline has passed, and now it's either Taysom's or Trevor's time step in as the new starter, hopefully with very positive results.

I understand the headlines, I'm saying the headlines made some people overlook the actual performance and in that category, Jameis was better. I know the back and forth narrative, it's like the horse race polls in politics. Here are the numbers from camp:
• Taysom Hill: 9 completions in 15 attempts with one touchdown in full team drills. He also rushed for a touchdown. 143 for 220 and 6 interceptions in camp as a whole.

• Jameis Winston: 9 completions in 15 attempts with one touchdown. 155 for 235 with nine touchdowns and four interceptions in camp as a whole.
link: https://www.nola.com/sports/saints/article_0210d48c-06a7-11ec-a843-33ee244040d9.html
These are preseason game stats: https://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/new-orleans-saints/stats?type=pre
Nevertheless, this is all a mute point now and Taysom will get another chance to earn the job. It's Sean call and I'm cool with that.

Player	Att	Cmp	Pct	Yds	YPA	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	Lg	Sack	Loss	Rate
Taysom Hill	32	19	59.4	219	6.8	1	3.1	1	3.1	28	3	26	77.5
Jameis Winston	22	16	72.7	219	10.0	3	13.6	1	4.5	43t	1	8	124.8

 

[Mississippi Saints Fan]

Payton has said from the start that Taysom would start if Winston got hurt. Whether that’s changed, who knows? I think a lot of people were surprised by how well Siemian performed, coming in cold. It wasn’t overly great, but it was better than I expected. I think what makes it tough is that he showed good patience and ability to read the field, whereas Taysom often gets a little antsy and takes off if his first read isn’t there. I’m fine with whoever Payton decides on, but I won’t be surprised either way. With Taysom’s mobility factored in, I’m not sure either QB gives us much of an advantage over the other.

 

[dtc]

A lot of good posts in this thread. I was amazed at Siemian's poise In coming off the bench after probably single digit reps in practice. Other than the dreadful int that was called back, he threw well.

I do not think that square peg Taysom Hill fits the round hole of starting quarterback, to steal someone else's metaphor. Rather, his best value is as a versatile offensive weapon. With Michael Thomas's likely absence this year--that's my opinion only-- we need every offensive weapon at our disposal. That means having Hill as a utility player.

Look at Tampa Bay, for instance. They have three running backs who could start for many teams. We have Kamara and now Ingram. They have three tight ends who could start for many teams. We have a regressing Trautman, converted WR Johnson, Vannett, and Griffin. They have at least three wide receivers who could start for many teams. We have Callaway, Smith, and a cast of extras. Is there any doubt that we need to put our offensive players in the best possible place to succeed? The way to put our offense in its best possible position is to leave Hill right where he is and roll the dice with former starting QB Siemian in my view.

If Hill has residual concussion issues then he's likely safer at QB if he's not going to run. And, since he's missed all week of practice, he's likely not in game shape nor ready for this weekend. If he's not still struggling with concussion issues and deemed completely healthy then it would seem he would better benefit the team in his jack of all trades role simply because we do not have enough weapons and putting him on the field drastically increases our offensive options.

Hill can run, throw and catch. He is dangerous anywhere on the field and our team has lacked that.

If I'm CSP, Trevor is starting so that Hill can provide options on the field we are currently missing.

 

[dtc]

Oh, but that's going to need to be a two-way application, right? Will the people who complained about the O-line and the team's having middle school level WRs with Winston at the helm grant Taysom (or Trevor) those same caveats?

Those people hate Peat and see his injury as an improvement and our WR room is far better now with everyone back except MT. Adding TH to the TE/WR/HB role further increases the quality of our offensive weapons.

 

[Chopper Man]

Hill performed badly in the QB competition, Hindsight is Trevor looked better as a pocket passer than Hill ever did. Hill can be explosive playing anywhere on the field, he doesn't have to be the Qb.