Marvel getting desperate

[SystemShock]

The restaurant in my analogy serves clientele worldwide, and entire world liked the steak and was happy with the steak,

Thing is, tastes vary from place to place. Case and point, places like India, where most people don't eat beef because of religious reasons, or even my home State of Yucatán, MX, where beef is not as popular as pork, turkey, seafood, or even venison.

 

[DaveXA]

Since this is post End Game you wouldn't consider both Black Widow and Ant Man been well known characters to the MCU audience at the point?

I always thought that putting Black Widow's movie out after her death in Infinity War an odd move

I don't recall the timing, but I know ScarJo and Disney got in a row over something and she had threatened to leave the company or something, I don't recall the details. Not sure if that was before or after the movie. The pandemic affected the timing of the release date for the movie, but still, I think it was gonna release after EG anyway. But yeah, it was definitely an odd choice. Maybe they weren't planning on a show until it was too late, idk.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Was the customer base indeed dying? Did the next generation indeed want something different? Did the next generation go and see Infinity War and Endgame, thus contributing to their $2billion+ box office (each)? Did the next generation also go see Captain Marvel, which earned a very good $1.13billion box office?

Now, did the next generation also go see The Marvels, which to date has a brutally-low $189million box office, a mere 1/6th of the total box office of its direct predecessor? Oh, they didn't? Why not? Isn't that the "something different" that they want? I bet those fossil fuels are looking pretty good to Marvel/Disney right now.

The customer base was absolutely FEASTING on steak. Yet the restaurant decided to switch to pork and expect the same customers to be happy.

Here are the movies since Endgame, separated into Steak and Pork (source: https://www.the-numbers.com/movies/franchise/Marvel-Cinematic-Universe#tab=summary):

Steak (known character, true to the character's nature and generally true to the comics):
Spider-Man: Far From Home: $1,132,107,522
Spider-Man: No Way Home: $1,907,836,254
Doctor Strange in the Multi…: $952,224,986
Thor: Love and Thunder: $760,928,081 (decent box office, but discovered to be a tough steak)
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever: $853,985,546 (decent box office, but just a little over half the box office of its predecessor. Would that have been different if Chadwick were still around for it?)
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3: $845,468,744

Pork (unknown character and/or outliers and/or changes from the comics)
Black Widow: $379,751,131 (outlier; character was already dead, so kind of a weird position to put the character in. I dug it though).
Shang-Chi and the Legend of…: $432,224,634 (unknown character; I liked it very much though)
Eternals: $401,731,759 (ugh)
Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quant…: $463,635,303 (outlier; bad word of mouth?)
The Marvels: $186,927,954 (maybe she wasn't as popular as the MCU thought. Maybe a lot of people went to see the first Captain Marvel movie because it was "required viewing" before Endgame due to the post-Infinity-War-stinger-scene?)


Here are those same movies in chronological order:
Jul 2, 2019 Spider-Man: Far From Home $1,132,107,522
Jul 9, 2021 Black Widow $379,751,131
Sep 3, 2021 Shang-Chi and the Legend of… $432,224,634
Nov 5, 2021 Eternals $401,731,759
Dec 17, 2021 Spider-Man: No Way Home $1,907,836,254
May 6, 2022 Doctor Strange in the Multi… $952,224,986
Jul 8, 2022 Thor: Love and Thunder $760,928,081
Nov 11, 2022 Black Panther: Wakanda Forever $853,985,546
Feb 17, 2023 Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quant… $463,635,303
May 5, 2023 Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3 $845,468,744
Nov 10, 2023 The Marvels $186,927,954

Sure, it is unfair to compare Spider-Man to Eternals, but this timeline does show an appetite for steak (Strange, Thor, Black Panther) in the middle of porky output (Eternals, Ant-Man, the Marvels).

Notice the difference in the price of steak vs the price of pork in those three lists above? Seems like steak is the clear preference.

Your Jane Foster analogy is not applicable. She's a different character. She isn't Thor himself and she did not replace Thor; she is another completely separate character who was imbued with the power of Thor. Kinda/sorta like the whole SS/Nova thing I mentioned. Similar characters, similar purpose, but ultimately different entities entirely, and Nova eventually replaced SS as a herald of Galactus.

Your timeframe argument is a bit weak as well, at least as it is being applied in this specific instance. SS first appeared in 1966; Nova first appeared less than a decade later, in 1975. That was still pretty much smack-dab in the middle of the straight-man demographics timeframe you are referring to. So why not just use her?

Again, who is asking for SS to be a woman? Where is the outcry for him to be cast as such? If it's not coming from the "next generation", then where is this silent outcry coming from? Or is it nonexistent?





The restaurant in my analogy serves clientele worldwide, and entire world liked the steak and was happy with the steak, and is likewise not (as) happy with the pork. See worldwide box office numbers quoted above.




I think this is the best and most logical answer to my question of "why" so far. And if that indeed the reason, then it seems like that would be fairly contrary to the inclusivity and equality mission at hand, and quite 1960's "straight man" of them to do so.

most of this ignores the context of covid - if Marvel was the only IP suffering from these issues, it would be one thing - but EVERY IP/Streaming service is navigating the same troubled waters
Marvel HAD to produce to stay competitive with Netflix and HBO and Amazon and Apple, et al - Marvel had the added context of being one of 2 (maybe 3) tentpoles trying to hold the whole thing up whereas other platforms could spread titles throughout (like I think Amazon took a big swing and missed with Rings of Power but could absorb it a bit more easily)
I'm sure all platforms/streamers went through beaucoup projection analysis that was part of determining which direction to go - problem is all analysis had no idea what the response to and length of covid was going to be and what public consumption was going to be like postC
more than likely every streamer/IP did some sort of short, medium, long term growth analysis with more guess work than they were comfortable with
for Marvel it also happened to coincide with the conclusion of their never before attempted Cinematic Universe
quite the task
no way it was going to be the hit that the first phases rounded into - esp with certain pockets of 'fandom' so invested into contrary takes

 

[hockey2112]

Since this is post End Game you wouldn't consider both Black Widow and Ant Man been well known characters to the MCU audience at the point?

I always thought that putting Black Widow's movie out after her death in Infinity War an odd move

That's why I said "unknown character and/or outliers and/or changes from the comics" and notated both of those specifically as "outliers".

Thing is, tastes vary from place to place. Case and point, places like India, where most people don't eat beef because of religious reasons, or even my home State of Yucatán, MX, where beef is not as popular as pork, turkey, seafood, or even venison.

It's a simplified analogy. It's not an essay on who eats what, where, and why. You are missing my point, which I thought I covered well when I said "The restaurant in my analogy serves clientele worldwide, and the entire world liked the steak and was happy with the steak, and is likewise not (as) happy with the pork". I believe that the worldwide box office proves that "the entire world was happy with the steak"; do you disagree? If it helps, change "restaurant" to something everyone wants, like "living conditions" and change "steak" to "clean air" and change "pork" to "polluted air". Everybody likes/wants good living conditions with clean air, everyone is/would be happy with it. Marvel polluted the air for no good reason other than to do it. The people (in this case, based on box office, the "entire world") seem to be making it known that they prefer clean air over polluted air. Therefore, it is nonsensical for Marvel to generate more polluted air (woman SS) for no reason other than "reasons", when the box office numbers show that people like clean air (known character, true to the character's nature and generally true to the comics).

most of this ignores the context of covid - if Marvel was the only IP suffering from these issues, it would be one thing - but EVERY IP/Streaming service is navigating the same troubled waters
Marvel HAD to produce to stay competitive with Netflix and HBO and Amazon and Apple, et al - Marvel had the added context of being one of 2 (maybe 3) tentpoles trying to hold the whole thing up whereas other platforms could spread titles throughout (like I think Amazon took a big swing and missed with Rings of Power but could absorb it a bit more easily)
I'm sure all platforms/streamers went through beaucoup projection analysis that was part of determining which direction to go - problem is all analysis had no idea what the response to and length of covid was going to be and what public consumption was going to be like postC
more than likely every streamer/IP did some sort of short, medium, long term growth analysis with more guess work than they were comfortable with
for Marvel it also happened to coincide with the conclusion of their never before attempted Cinematic Universe
quite the task
no way it was going to be the hit that the first phases rounded into - esp with certain pockets of 'fandom' so invested into contrary takes

3 questions for you:

1. Is it a "contrary take" to want Marvel to remain true to their decades-established characters? Why is it NOT a contrary take to change your characters completely from their established characterizations? Isn't that contrary to the character's history? Two-way street, I suppose. I agree that it would be a near-insurmountable feat to match the success of the Endgame era of the MCU, but they could have at least tried to do so by sticking with what worked: staying true to the character's nature and generally true to the comics.

2. How exactly does Covid necessitate changing SS to a woman?

3. I agree that box office slowed dramatically during and post-Covid and studios had to pivot and all of that. Does that explain The Marvels box office being 1/8 the amount of Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3? They marketed the hell out of it, Beastie Boys in the (high energy and funny) trailer, Disney Plus TV tie-ins. Yet there it wallows, at the bottom of the heap.

Gosh, if only Marvel had decades upon decades of established storylines from countless writers and artists to pick and choose from. Oh well, maybe in another multiverse!

Lastly, any comment on my replies to your Jane Foster, 1960's straight men, etc points?

 

[hockey2112]

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

was this to me bc i didn't reply?
i'm just now realizing that i read this at a light at the beginning of my commute - that usually death for any post or email to me
class is coming in so i probably won't address for awhile

 

[DaveXA]

The people (in this case, based on box office, the "entire world") seem to be making it known that they prefer clean air over polluted air. Therefore, it is nonsensical for Marvel to generate more polluted air (woman SS) for no reason other than "reasons", when the box office numbers show that people like clean air (known character, true to the character's nature and generally true to the comics).

I'm not buying this reasoning because the slowdown in box office revenue started after Endgame. You'd have to attribute what you call "pollution" to something else because woman SS isn't even a thing yet.

3 questions for you:

1. Is it a "contrary take" to want Marvel to remain true to their decades-established characters?

Not necessarily. That said, there are a lot of subtle and not so subtle differences between MCU characters and while there are important similarites there are also important difference. Nothing really wrong with either approach.

Why is it NOT a contrary take to change your characters completely from their established characterizations? Isn't that contrary to the character's history? Two-way street, I suppose. I agree that it would be a near-insurmountable feat to match the success of the Endgame era of the MCU, but they could have at least tried to do so by sticking with what worked: staying true to the character's nature and generally true to the comics.

Keep in mind Kevin Fiege is a comics reader and knows the lore well. That said, he adapted characters from the Comics to the big screen. Some have liked it, and others not so much.

2. How exactly does Covid necessitate changing SS to a woman?

It doesn't. At least not directly.

3. I agree that box office slowed dramatically during and post-Covid and studios had to pivot and all of that. Does that explain The Marvels box office being 1/8 the amount of Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3?

i think there are myriad reasons. Movie going in mired in a pretty bad slump, and The Marvels got hit by that trend. That said they've been outperformed by a couple of features. That's not good for Marvel.

They marketed the hell out of it, Beastie Boys in the (high energy and funny) trailer, Disney Plus TV tie-ins. Yet there it wallows, at the bottom of the heap.

I dunno, they did market it some, but it wasn't plastered everywhere like Oppenheimer and Barbie in the middle of the summer. Others get the enthusiasm for it because they haven't watched Ms. Marvel or Captain Marvel.

Gosh, if only Marvel had decades upon decades of established storylines from countless writers and artists to pick and choose from. Oh well, maybe in another multiverse!

They have done that to some degree. What do you think they've been doing the last 15 years?

Lastly, any comment on my replies to your Jane Foster, 1960's straight men, etc points?

 

[hockey2112]

was this to me bc i didn't reply?
i'm just now realizing that i read this at a light at the beginning of my commute - that usually death for any post or email to me
class is coming in so i probably won't address for awhile

Maybe haha! You're always pretty quick to reply, and I was looking forward to your thoughts on the rest of my reply.

I'm not buying this reasoning because the slowdown in box office revenue started after Endgame. You'd have to attribute what you call "pollution" to something else because woman SS isn't even a thing yet.

Post-Endgame movies in chronological order:
Jul 2, 2019 Spider-Man: Far From Home $1,132,107,522
Jul 9, 2021 Black Widow $379,751,131
Sep 3, 2021 Shang-Chi and the Legend of… $432,224,634
Nov 5, 2021 Eternals $401,731,759
Dec 17, 2021 Spider-Man: No Way Home $1,907,836,254
May 6, 2022 Doctor Strange in the Multi… $952,224,986
Jul 8, 2022 Thor: Love and Thunder $760,928,081
Nov 11, 2022 Black Panther: Wakanda Forever $853,985,546
Feb 17, 2023 Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quant… $463,635,303
May 5, 2023 Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3 $845,468,744
Nov 10, 2023 The Marvels $186,927,954

Box office increased for Spider-Man, Dr Strange, and Guardians. Slightly lower for Thor. Markedly lower for Black Panther 2 and Ant Man 3. Not great for Shang Chi, Black Widow, and Eternals. Abysmal for The Marvels. The BO increases were peppered throughout the post-Endgame slate, so I don't think we can just say it's slower post-Endgame in general. But my point is that they have/had a winning formula. Changing SS to a woman is not part of that previous winning formula... I don't think they did anything like that during the Endgame era, other than The Ancient One (who is not particularly a "main character" in the comics. Important, yes... SS-level in a Galactus/FF movie? No).

Not necessarily. That said, there are a lot of subtle and not so subtle differences between MCU characters and while there are important similarites there are also important difference. Nothing really wrong with either approach.

Keep in mind Kevin Fiege is a comics reader and knows the lore well. That said, he adapted characters from the Comics to the big screen. Some have liked it, and others not so much.

Can you name a few "important" difference on the level of changing SS to a woman, during the Endgame era? You may be right, but I am having a difficult time thinking of any such differences.

i think there are myriad reasons. Movie going in mired in a pretty bad slump, and The Marvels got hit by that trend. That said they've been outperformed by a couple of features. That's not good for Marvel.

But why only The Marvels? Why didn't GOTG3 get hit by that slump/trend? Does The Marvels get a pass for some reason? It sort of feels like people wanted GOTG, but they didn't want The Marvels.

I dunno, they did market it some, but it wasn't plastered everywhere like Oppenheimer and Barbie in the middle of the summer. Others get the enthusiasm for it because they haven't watched Ms. Marvel or Captain Marvel.

Agreed that it was definitely not as prevalent as Opp or Barbie marketing. Was it marketed any less than GOTG3, do you think? Or Ant Man Quantumania?

They have done that to some degree. What do you think they've been doing the last 15 years?

Correct, they have been doing so for the last 15 years. The majority of Endgame era would fall into that realm of "using the source material". That comment was more directed at SS gender swap. Why not use the source material for SS? Why not stay true to the character?

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Maybe haha! You're always pretty quick to reply, and I was looking forward to your thoughts on the rest of my reply.





Post-Endgame movies in chronological order:
Jul 2, 2019 Spider-Man: Far From Home $1,132,107,522
Jul 9, 2021 Black Widow $379,751,131
Sep 3, 2021 Shang-Chi and the Legend of… $432,224,634
Nov 5, 2021 Eternals $401,731,759
Dec 17, 2021 Spider-Man: No Way Home $1,907,836,254
May 6, 2022 Doctor Strange in the Multi… $952,224,986
Jul 8, 2022 Thor: Love and Thunder $760,928,081
Nov 11, 2022 Black Panther: Wakanda Forever $853,985,546
Feb 17, 2023 Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quant… $463,635,303
May 5, 2023 Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3 $845,468,744
Nov 10, 2023 The Marvels $186,927,954

Box office increased for Spider-Man, Dr Strange, and Guardians. Slightly lower for Thor. Markedly lower for Black Panther 2 and Ant Man 3. Not great for Shang Chi, Black Widow, and Eternals. Abysmal for The Marvels. The BO increases were peppered throughout the post-Endgame slate, so I don't think we can just say it's slower post-Endgame in general. But my point is that they have/had a winning formula. Changing SS to a woman is not part of that previous winning formula... I don't think they did anything like that during the Endgame era, other than The Ancient One (who is not particularly a "main character" in the comics. Important, yes... SS-level in a Galactus/FF movie? No).



Can you name a few "important" difference on the level of changing SS to a woman, during the Endgame era? You may be right, but I am having a difficult time thinking of any such differences.


But why only The Marvels? Why didn't GOTG3 get hit by that slump/trend? Does The Marvels get a pass for some reason? It sort of feels like people wanted GOTG, but they didn't want The Marvels.


Agreed that it was definitely not as prevalent as Opp or Barbie marketing. Was it marketed any less than GOTG3, do you think? Or Ant Man Quantumania?


Correct, they have been doing so for the last 15 years. The majority of Endgame era would fall into that realm of "using the source material". That comment was more directed at SS gender swap. Why not use the source material for SS? Why not stay true to the character?

This isn’t a complete answer, but if you are serious with these questions, I encourage you to read this book (I’m maybe 2/3 done on the audiobook)
Gives a lot of insight and nuance

Amazon product ASIN 1631497510

 

[DaveXA]

Maybe haha! You're always pretty quick to reply, and I was looking forward to your thoughts on the rest of my reply.





Post-Endgame movies in chronological order:
Jul 2, 2019 Spider-Man: Far From Home $1,132,107,522
Jul 9, 2021 Black Widow $379,751,131
Sep 3, 2021 Shang-Chi and the Legend of… $432,224,634
Nov 5, 2021 Eternals $401,731,759
Dec 17, 2021 Spider-Man: No Way Home $1,907,836,254
May 6, 2022 Doctor Strange in the Multi… $952,224,986
Jul 8, 2022 Thor: Love and Thunder $760,928,081
Nov 11, 2022 Black Panther: Wakanda Forever $853,985,546
Feb 17, 2023 Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quant… $463,635,303
May 5, 2023 Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3 $845,468,744
Nov 10, 2023 The Marvels $186,927,954

Box office increased for Spider-Man, Dr Strange, and Guardians. Slightly lower for Thor. Markedly lower for Black Panther 2 and Ant Man 3. Not great for Shang Chi, Black Widow, and Eternals. Abysmal for The Marvels. The BO increases were peppered throughout the post-Endgame slate, so I don't think we can just say it's slower post-Endgame in general. But my point is that they have/had a winning formula. Changing SS to a woman is not part of that previous winning formula... I don't think they did anything like that during the Endgame era, other than The Ancient One (who is not particularly a "main character" in the comics. Important, yes... SS-level in a Galactus/FF movie? No).

I think the stronger correlation will be with the more familiar movies. I think in a different time/place, Black Widow would have done double what it did. Why they waited til after Endgame baffles me. But the rest feels like the box office results were more a reflection of fans wanting to see familiar characters. BP2 was probably hurt some by the loss of Chadwick Boseman. The rest of the lesser grossing movies I think were hurt by a double whammy of oversaturation and waning interest in the lesser known characters. I don't think it had anything to do with the characters they chose, or the casting. I mean, there's always been some fan service for comics purists, but overall, the MCU has always been about telling a story to a broader audience.

Can you name a few "important" difference on the level of changing SS to a woman, during the Endgame era? You may be right, but I am having a difficult time thinking of any such differences.

I'm sure there are some, I'm kinda tired lol. But the MCU has long been a movie adaptation of the comics. They aren't movie replays of the comics. They've taken some license with styling, character, suits, etc.

But why only The Marvels? Why didn't GOTG3 get hit by that slump/trend? Does The Marvels get a pass for some reason? It sort of feels like people wanted GOTG, but they didn't want The Marvels.

I think post-strike had a big dampening effect on people going to movies. That hurt the industry overall imo. And The Marvels, while they did get some promotions, it wasn't near as noticeable as previous movies were, but that's my anecdotal observation more than anything else. It's pretty clear though that since the summer (Oppenheimer/Barbie), it's slowed a ton. GOTG was a movie a lot of MCU fans were and are still connected with and there was a lot of interest. Captain Marvel doesn't have that same pull.

Agreed that it was definitely not as prevalent as Opp or Barbie marketing. Was it marketed any less than GOTG3, do you think? Or Ant Man Quantumania?

I don't know.

Correct, they have been doing so for the last 15 years. The majority of Endgame era would fall into that realm of "using the source material". That comment was more directed at SS gender swap. Why not use the source material for SS? Why not stay true to the character?

I don't really have an issue with changing the story up. That said, I don't think it's necessary to change it, but I also don't think it would hurt either. Maybe some purists might have an issue, but they're a fairly small segment of the broader MCU audience.

 

[Arathrael]

Changing SS to a woman is not part of that previous winning formula... I don't think they did anything like that during the Endgame era, other than The Ancient One (who is not particularly a "main character" in the comics. Important, yes... SS-level in a Galactus/FF movie? No).

I don't think it'd necessarily be that significant.

And I say that as someone who has a box full of Silver Surfer comics up in his loft.

It arguably depends on exactly what they're planning to do with the Silver Surfer in the movies. If it's essentially just herald to Galactus, Galactus wants to eat Earth, Surfer rebels, I don't think a gender switch has any real bearing on that.

If they wanted to get more into the Surfer's backstory, you could argue a gender switch does impact that, since it could be argued some of it is tied up with concepts of masculinity, and it would also alter the Surfer's relationships with other characters as portrayed in the comics. But even then, change is not necessarily bad. Potentially it could be more interesting, since, these days, some of that back story is pretty clichéd. They could of course mix that up without changing the gender, but ultimately, if they are changing the gender, I don't see that as necessarily a big issue. I think whether they do whatever they're doing well or not is far more significant.

And as far as the backstory, they also have a problem there, in that they already did some of the main parts of the backstory without him. A lot of that was tied up with Thanos and the Infinity Gauntlet. So I'm not sure where they'd be going with the Surfer anyway.

 

[DaveXA]

Ultimately, I think the SS story is still being hashed out, so I wouldn't make too many assumptions until we have a good idea of what their (Marvel) actual plan will be. I think the focus will ultimately be more on X-men than F4.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Ultimately, I think the SS story is still being hashed out, so I wouldn't make too many assumptions until we have a good idea of what their (Marvel) actual plan will be. I think the focus will ultimately be more on X-men than F4.

Ultimately I think what we’re seeing is that Marvel’s success was based largely on Feige having a winning strategy of working with directors and deftly adapting to circumstances- and a LOT of luck
It’s too big for Feige to do by himself anymore- and now Iger is feeling the need to be seen as more hands on

[where he was content to stay behind the curtain in his first iteration- and he’s smarting from losing the strike battles- his missteps seem to be increasing
Which is not good news for Filoni/SW either]

Marvel is trying to be expansive (which makes sense for both content and business), but feeling the need to have central narrative as important as individual story - that seems to be the thing complicating their storytelling as much as anything but it’s probably unavoidable as well

 

[boutte]

the beauty of this country is you get to be as wrong as you can be
And I see you’re testing the limits of your freedom here
Good for you

OhNO! An opposing point of view! We can't have that! Stamp it STAMP IT OUT!!

And do you set the limits of my freedom? Who do you think you are? I think maybe you're a little full of yourself.