My guess: Caitlin & Angel will garner co-Rookie of the Year honors (3 Viewers)

[livefromDC]

The only thing is CC already immensely skilled up. So where is she going to improve?
She could get stronger but she seems to be better using her speed instead of her strength to get to her spot.

Well thats not true. She's a deadly shot, but her game definitely has holes in it. She's not the woman version Steph Curry. Where Curry can make space going in any direction, all directions, CC is very limited. What helps her is her insane range, but she can be guarded effectively. And when she gets stronger and more effective going in any direction dribbling she'll have an advantage Curry never really enjoyed. She will be the same size as most of the players guarding her. In a couple years, she could be unstoppable.

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

Fair enough, I think if there was a shots challenged stat it would help but there is not....

But, as I learned recently, it's important to keep in mind that shooting % in the WNBA is way lower than the NBA....at the same time, Reese definitely needs to improve her %.....

But that is just one part of the game, Reese is leading the entire league in rebounding (as a rookie) and has already set a record for consecutive double doubles....CC had done well also, it's clearly a two woman race.....no other rookies come close to what those 2 have done.....to say Reese's offensive performance is not worthy of rookie of the year makes no sense to me....

I understand your point about WNBA shooting percentages being lower than in the NBA, but I only used that as one example.

I also compared Reese to the rest of her team, as well as the rest of the starting front court players in the WNBA. I even accounted for players who mainly take the kinds of shots that Angel Reese does. She ranks very (very) low in shooting % compared to the other post players in the WNBA. It just is what it is.

While her rebounding is really impressive, her lack of offense takes her out of rookie of the year (in my opinion), especially since Caitlyn Clark is 2nd in the league in rebounds per game for all guards. To me, that negates the one advantage Reese would have in the rookie of the year race.

To me, Clark clearly has far more offensive responsibilities and is the better offensive player. Clark and Reese are even in steals, with Clark averaging more blocks per game. Reese is a tremendous rebounder, but so is Clark for her position.

I think both are terrific players and they will only get better. We just seem to disagree on who we’d vote for as rookie of the year. Like you said, fair enough. No harm in a simple sports disagreement.

 

[sfidc3]

I understand your point about WNBA shooting percentages being lower than in the NBA, but I only used that as one example.

I also compared Reese to the rest of her team, as well as the rest of the starting front court players in the WNBA. I even accounted for players who mainly take the kinds of shots that Angel Reese does. She ranks very (very) low in shooting % compared to the other post players in the WNBA. It just is what it is.

While her rebounding is really impressive, her lack of offense takes her out of rookie of the year (in my opinion), especially since Caitlyn Clark is 2nd in the league in rebounds per game for all guards. To me, that negates the one advantage Reese would have in the rookie of the year race.

To me, Clark clearly has far more offensive responsibilities and is the better offensive player. Clark and Reese are even in steals, with Clark averaging more blocks per game. Reese is a tremendous rebounder, but so is Clark for her position.

I think both are terrific players and they will only get better. We just seem to disagree on who we’d vote for as rookie of the year. Like you said, fair enough. No harm in a simple sports disagreement.

I don't think I ever said Reese should be rookie of the year.....I just don't think her offensive performance disqualifies her......the season hasn't played out yet....we'll see what happens.....

I think what keeps it close (to me, probably not to anyone else) is CC's league leading TO's per game.....

 

[Deuuuuce]

Well thats not true. She's a deadly shot, but her game definitely has holes in it. She's not the woman version Steph Curry. Where Curry can make space going in any direction, all directions, CC is very limited. What helps her is her insane range, but she can be guarded effectively. And when she gets stronger and more effective going in any direction dribbling she'll have an advantage Curry never really enjoyed. She will be the same size as most of the players guarding her. In a couple years, she could be unstoppable.

Maybe.

A lot of people seem to think if she gets stronger on drives it will take her to the next level. What she needs imo are more running mates in the backcourt to take pressure off so she can operate in space more.

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

I don't think I ever said Reese should be rookie of the year.....I just don't think her offensive performance disqualifies her......the season hasn't played out yet....we'll see what happens.....

I think what keeps it close (to me, probably not to anyone else) is CC's league leading TO's per game.....

Sorry, I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth. That is how I interpreted our disagreement, but my that’s my bad if I missed on that.

I still don’t think we see eye-to-eye on Reese’s offensive performance, but there’s nothing wrong with that. I think it has been a good discussion.

As far as Clark’s turnovers and her rookie of the year case, I think:

1) She is turning the ball over too much. Getting stronger and having an off-season with her teammates should help cut those down quite a bit, but we will have to see.
2) Heliocentric guards in basketball are going to have a lot of turnovers. When you handle the ball that much & make so many decisions per game, there will be turnovers that come with the good.

If you look at the top 5-10 in turnovers per game in the NBA, it is almost always a “Who’s who” of the league. Luka led the nba in turnovers this year.
3) A lot of her turnovers are teammates just fumbling passes. There are a bunch of super-cut videos of this online.

But Clark’s turnovers are an issue. It wouldn’t sway my hypothetical rookie of the year vote (for the reasons I gave), but I understand if people feel differently.

 

[livefromDC]

Maybe.

A lot of people seem to think if she gets stronger on drives it will take her to the next level. What she needs imo are more running mates in the backcourt to take pressure off so she can operate in space more.

Those people would be right. She's better driving to her right and she likes to step back to her left. Basically there's certain spots she likes to get to and a good defensive player can disrupt that like South Carolina did in the championship game. Difference between her and Steph when both are forced to dribble, she's trying to get to a certain spot while Steph is trying to create space. He literally can go in any direction at any time. She has the range to do what Steph does, she doesn't have the ball handling skills yet. She's too good to depend on getting her a backcourt mate with those ball skills. She can do it. She just needs more time.

 

[bigdaddysaints]

I understand your point about WNBA shooting percentages being lower than in the NBA, but I only used that as one example.

I also compared Reese to the rest of her team, as well as the rest of the starting front court players in the WNBA. I even accounted for players who mainly take the kinds of shots that Angel Reese does. She ranks very (very) low in shooting % compared to the other post players in the WNBA. It just is what it is.

While her rebounding is really impressive, her lack of offense takes her out of rookie of the year (in my opinion), especially since Caitlyn Clark is 2nd in the league in rebounds per game for all guards. To me, that negates the one advantage Reese would have in the rookie of the year race.

To me, Clark clearly has far more offensive responsibilities and is the better offensive player. Clark and Reese are even in steals, with Clark averaging more blocks per game. Reese is a tremendous rebounder, but so is Clark for her position.

I think both are terrific players and they will only get better. We just seem to disagree on who we’d vote for as rookie of the year. Like you said, fair enough. No harm in a simple sports disagreement.

doesn't Reese and Clark have almost the same shooting percentage?

 

[livefromDC]

doesn't Reese and Clark have almost the same shooting percentage?

The argument is that Reese takes most of her shots closer to the goal. While true, it's still very different from the NBA land of 6'10 and 7 footers. She's not kicking it out or getting most her points on layups resulting from good ball movement. She's creating her own shot under her team's rim off of offensive boards. This means the defense usually has the advantage. Nevertheless, she'll get better at it. Her shooting percentage will get better.

For what's worth, Clark's percentage should be higher too. It will also get better. These are 2 great rookies playing different positions. And playing them at a level rarely seen by rookies in the WNBA, again, for their respective divisions. I can easily see either being ROY.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Still can't believe Angel dropped out of the top 5 in the draft. Happy she's proving naysayers wrong.

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

The argument is that Reese takes most of her shots closer to the goal. While true, it's still very different from the NBA land of 6'10 and 7 footers. She's not kicking it out or getting most her points on layups resulting from good ball movement. She's creating her own shot under her team's rim off of offensive boards. This means the defense usually has the advantage. Nevertheless, she'll get better at it. Her shooting percentage will get better.

For what's worth, Clark's percentage should be higher too. It will also get better. These are 2 great rookies playing different positions. And playing them at a level rarely seen by rookies in the WNBA, again, for their respective divisions. I can easily see either being ROY.

I just don’t understand this argument. Angel Reese is not a shot creator, not from deep, not from the block. 63% of her 2-pt attempts (which most of her attempts are) are assisted. She does get layup opportunities, but doesn’t convert enough of them.

She is dependent on post-ups and (mostly) offensive rebounds, but is not efficient at converting either.

I see people continue to bring up NBA comparisons to shield AR’s shooting % (and I admit that part of that is my fault), but in comparison to other front court WNBA players, Angel Reese is a poor offensive performer.

She is, statistically, near the bottom of front court WNBA players when it comes to scoring close to the rim (where 85% of AR’s attempts come from).

She is a fantastic rebounder, but she is not a particularly good offensive player yet (obviously has time/ability to improve).

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

doesn't Reese and Clark have almost the same shooting percentage?

They have the same fg %, but Reese takes ~85% of her shots in the paint and Clark takes ~65% of her shots from 3.

Clark’s effective and true shooting percentages are both higher than AR’s.

 

[livefromDC]

I just don’t understand this argument. Angel Reese is not a shot creator, not from deep, not from the block.

She is dependent on post-ups and (mostly) offensive rebounds, but is not efficient at converting either.

I see people continue to bring up NBA comparisons to shield AR’s shooting % (and I admit that part of that is my fault), but in comparison to other front court WNBA players, Angel Reese is a poor offensive performer.

That's exactly what I said. She's getting most of her shots off of offensive rebounds which usually favors the defense. Those are tough points in any league but especially in the WNBA.

You're comparing her average within 3ft to the other people on her team. She's scoring on offensive rebounds not shot created for her to get the ball under the rim.

But there's a fair comp literally on the Chicago Sky in her teammate, Kamilla Cardoso. She was taken before Reese and is much taller at 6'7". For comparison, Reese is closer in height to Clark. Camilla shoots a better percentage but she's not doing so off offensive rebounds at the rate Reese is doing it. When you compare Reese to Cardosa you see how much of a standout year Reese is having. Just looking at fg% within 3ft just doesn't tell the whole story. The offense doesn't run through Reese, she's creating her looks. That's much harder than you're giving her credit for.

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

That's exactly what I said. She's getting most of her shots off of offensive rebounds which usually favors the defense. Those are tough points in any league but especially in the WNBA.

You're comparing her average within 3ft to the other people on her team. She's scoring on offensive rebounds not shot created for her to get the ball under the rim.

But there's a fair comp literally on the Chicago Sky in her teammate, Kamilla Cardoso. She was taken before Reese and is much taller at 6'7". For comparison, Reese is closer in height to Clark. Camilla shoots a better percentage but she's not doing so off offensive rebounds at the rate Reese is doing it. When you compare Reese to Cardosa you see how much of a standout year Reese is having. Just looking at fg% within 3ft just doesn't tell the whole story. The offense doesn't run through Reese, she's creating her looks. That's much harder than you're giving her credit for.

I mean, I compared her to every single starting center and forward in the WNBA. Her shooting % among starting front court players who attempt most of their shots within 5 ft is near the bottom.

How is that an unfair sample?

I only mentioned shooting % from 3-5 feet because that is all Reese attempts.

She shoots a low percentage from very close to the basket, and 63% of her shots are assisted on. The results are bad (outside of her great rebounding).

I don’t know how else to convey her offensive shortcomings.

I have not seen any stat or eye-test that supports that she is creating efficient looks or playing well offensively.

 

[livefromDC]

I mean, I compared her to every single starting center and forward in the WNBA. Her shooting % among starting front court players who attempt most of their shots within 5 ft is near the bottom.

How is that an unfair sample?

I only mentioned shooting % from 3-5 feet because that is all Reese attempts.

She shoots a low percentage from very close to the basket, and 63% of her shots are assisted on. The results are bad (outside of her great rebounding).

I don’t know how else to convey her offensive shortcomings.

I have not seen any stat or eye-test that supports that she is creating efficient looks or playing well offensively.

So you're saying Reese is not an offensive player? You would be correct. That's not her game. She's battling down in the paint for rebounds at a higher efficiency than any other player in the league. Clark is also near the bottom in %, but she is an offensive player. If you're going to hold shooting percentage against one of these players, it should the shooter, but you're not.

Reese is not an offensive player. Once again, she makes her points from offensive rebounds, something she leads the league in doing. Not just rookies, the league. Her scoring average will improve as she continues to adjust to the difference.

What I get annoyed at by the Reese/Clark discussions is the sliding scale when evaluating both. It's okay that Clark's % is near the league bottom as a shooter something she's known as, but Reese who's not known as a shooter, you're dinging her for her fg%. Why???? Clark has the 8th worst FG% among guards. Among guards. So does that mean she's not good enough either right?

I just think the standard you're holding one player too but not the other is weird especially when you know they're doing 2 very different things.

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

So you're saying Reese is not an offensive player? You would be correct. That's not her game. She's battling down in the paint for rebounds at a higher efficiency than any other player in the league. Clark is also near the bottom in %, but she is an offensive player. If you're going to hold shooting percentage against one of these players, it should the shooter, but you're not.

Reese is not an offensive player. Once again, she makes her points from offensive rebounds, something she leads the league in doing. Not just rookies, the league. Her scoring average will improve as she continues to adjust to the difference.

What I get annoyed at by the Reese/Clark discussions is the sliding scale when evaluating both. It's okay that Clark's % is near the league bottom as a shooter something she's known as, but Reese who's not known as a shooter, you're dinging her for her fg%. Why???? Clark has the 8th worst FG% among guards. Among guards. So does that mean she's not good enough either right?

I just think the standard you're holding one player too but not the other is weird especially when you know they're doing 2 very different things.

I apologize if I am coming across as not liking Angel Reese. That’s not my intention. I’m only giving my opinion on who I think should be rookie of the year, and I feel like I’m supporting my position with a lot of stats.

You referred to shooting % several times in that post, but I think it is deeper than that. Raw fg shooting % is the same between AR and CC, but Clark has a much higher true shooting and effective fg %. Again, Reese has a much more advantageous shot diet than Clark, but is not nearly as effective.