My guess: Caitlin & Angel will garner co-Rookie of the Year honors (1 Viewer)

[Loco Hornet Fan]

Wasn't talking numbers....just positions....and if Angel continues with the double doubles I wouldn't discount her chances.....

I have seen some of her double-double games, and while the rebounding is impressive, getting 10-12 points while shooting 3/13 from 5 feet just isn’t.

Again, I’m not saying all of her games are like that, but a bunch of them are pretty underwhelming. If you look at her shooting % and her shot chart, it’s pretty bad.

I’m not saying she’s not a good player, but I don’t think she’s rookie of the year.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

birch please.

I realize wnba doesn’t have nearly the same number of whiney *** birches that Detroit had, but I think the comparison is apt

 

[DaveXA]

I realize wnba doesn’t have nearly the same number of whiney *** birches that Detroit had, but I think the comparison is apt

Ohhh, you just declared war. Lmao.

Or better...

And this, children, is how wars have started.

 

[zeetes]

I realize wnba doesn’t have nearly the same number of whiney *** birches that Detroit had, but I think the comparison is apt

one laimbeer to burn up fouls taking each player out, one by one.

"ear level dribble this!" *kaboom*
"hurl a three!" *clobber*
"oh no, not another layup!" *clothesline*

fork that boring arse league

 

[sfidc3]

She could be more efficient, but that will come when she has better, more consistent play from the rest of the team. She will get more open looks and wont have to force as much.
I still think Reese has a higher ceiling if she just improves her jump shot.

No doubt, which will also improve her shooting % and PPG.....I think if she gets a good team around her she will lead the WNBA in scoring someday....the reason I think CC's ceiling is higher is her range.....but Reese is going to be great as well, just different players....

I have seen some of her double-double games, and while the rebounding is impressive, getting 10-12 points while shooting 3/13 from 5 feet just isn’t.

Again, I’m not saying all of her games are like that, but a bunch of them are pretty underwhelming. If you look at her shooting % and her shot chart, it’s pretty bad.

I’m not saying she’s not a good player, but I don’t think she’s rookie of the year.

I mean, I couldn't disagree more.....points under/near the basket are mostly not easy, there is a reason they call it the "dirty work".....Players that excel at it are highly valued.....I agree she has to improve her FG % and I think that will come with time/experience....

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

I mean, I couldn't disagree more.....points under/near the basket are mostly not easy, there is a reason they call it the "dirty work".....Players that excel at it are highly valued.....I agree she has to improve her FG % and I think that will come with time/experience....

We will just have to agree to disagree then. Shots within 5 feet of the basket should be very high % looks. The only reason they wouldn’t be is if you are forcing stuff or need to improve your touch/layup package.

It’s called “dirty work” more because of the effort required vs acclaim you will get for performing such a task, as well as the metaphor of “taking out the trash/cleaning up after your teammates” (putback, etc.).

A player who attempts 9 shots per game inside 5 feet & misses most of them, isn’t being very efficient.

It is why a guy like Jonas Valanciunas always has a higher fg % than Steph Curry (much more favorable shot diet for JV), but Curry’s true shooting % is always a bit better. For comparison, Caitlyn Clark’s true shooting % is way higher than AR’s, despite the fact that CC isn’t even shooting close to what Curry is from 3 yet.

AR and CC are both shooting 40% from the field (Clark’s TS% is 9 pts higher though), but AR has the MUCH more favorable shot diet of 55% of her shot from with 3 ft, 86% from inside 10. Clark attempts 17% of her shots from inside 3 feet, 31% from inside 10, and 65% from 3-point range.

AR is 8th on her team in true shooting % and 10th in fg % within 3 feet. Even if you only accounted for players who attempt at least 30% of their shots from 3 feet, she would still only be 4th on her team.

AR is 25th in fg % within 5 feet among starting WNBA front court players (who attempt at least ~ 5 of those shots per game).

I just don’t think her offense is at a level where I would vote for her as rookie of the year (stats or eye test). I certainly agree that improvement can come with time and experience and am not trying to label her as a bad player.

 

[sfidc3]

A player who attempts 9 shots per game inside 5 feet & misses most of them, isn’t being very efficient.

I think it's important to keep in mind that she is a rookie going against bigs that are quicker, bigger and stronger. Also your dirty work definition differs from mine, which is fine.....part of the reason it's dirty work is because one is going up against the biggest, strongest on the other team....

 

[bigdaddysaints]

A week or so ago someone broke down CC’s turnovers, and her turnovers were like many of Drew Brees’ ints., many times they were the fault of the teammates for not catching the ball, more than poor ball placement.

i'll ask this question because i truly do not know the answer. If she passes the ball and the other player drops it, does the TO go to Clark, or the one who dropped it?

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

i'll ask this question because i truly do not know the answer. If she passes the ball and the other player drops it, does the TO go to Clark, or the one who dropped it?

The passer. Unless the other player is judged to have caught it/fully possessed it and then dropped it. Sort of like "What's a catch?" in the NFL.

 

[El Caliente]

i'll ask this question because i truly do not know the answer. If she passes the ball and the other player drops it, does the TO go to Clark, or the one who dropped it?

Clark. Much like if Brees threw a ball and the receiver tipped it into the hands of a defender Brees got credited with the int.

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

I think it's important to keep in mind that she is a rookie going against bigs that are quicker, bigger and stronger. Also your dirty work definition differs from mine, which is fine.....part of the reason it's dirty work is because one is going up against the biggest, strongest on the other team....

Respectfully, I feel like I am keeping that in mind. I provided a lot of stats that support my definition and assessment of her offensive performance.

I gave her as favorable a statistical comparison as I could (limiting it to F/C positions, shot attempts per distance, and shot % per distance). C

I’m open to any other data, observations, or statistics you have though.

Also, every rookie could make the case that they are going up against players that are “quicker, bigger, stronger” than them, so I don’t really see how that helps Angel Reese, specifically, in the rookie of the year race.

Again, I’m not saying she isn’t a terrific player, or that she can’t get better. I just don’t think her offensive performance has taken her to rookie of the year level.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

We will just have to agree to disagree then. Shots within 5 feet of the basket should be very high % looks. The only reason they wouldn’t be is if you are forcing stuff or need to improve your touch/layup package.

It’s called “dirty work” more because of the effort required vs acclaim you will get for performing such a task, as well as the metaphor of “taking out the trash/cleaning up after your teammates” (putback, etc.).

A player who attempts 9 shots per game inside 5 feet & misses most of them, isn’t being very efficient.

It is why a guy like Jonas Valanciunas always has a higher fg % than Steph Curry (much more favorable shot diet for JV), but Curry’s true shooting % is always a bit better. For comparison, Caitlyn Clark’s true shooting % is way higher than AR’s, despite the fact that CC isn’t even shooting close to what Curry is from 3 yet.

AR and CC are both shooting 40% from the field (Clark’s TS% is 9 pts higher though), but AR has the MUCH more favorable shot diet of 55% of her shot from with 3 ft, 86% from inside 10. Clark attempts 17% of her shots from inside 3 feet, 31% from inside 10, and 65% from 3-point range.

AR is 8th on her team in true shooting % and 10th in fg % within 3 feet. Even if you only accounted for players who attempt at least 30% of their shots from 3 feet, she would still only be 4th on her team.

AR is 25th in fg % within 5 feet among starting WNBA front court players (who attempt at least ~ 5 of those shots per game).

I just don’t think her offense is at a level where I would vote for her as rookie of the year (stats or eye test). I certainly agree that improvement can come with time and experience and am not trying to label her as a bad player.

In general I think it’s a stretch to compare interior vs deep shooting
While Steph might have better scoring stroke than JV
JV could do way more damage from 3 than Steph could on the low block
The skill on the inside is getting into the right position (and timing), then having soft enough hands that you can go up strong but also apply touch at end

Put another way, Zion could way more easily replicate Hawk’s skill instead of the other way

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

In general I think it’s a stretch to compare interior vs deep shooting
While Steph might have better scoring stroke than JV
JV could do way more damage from 3 than Steph could on the low block
The skill on the inside is getting into the right position (and timing), then having soft enough hands that you can go up strong but also apply touch at end

Put another way, Zion could way more easily replicate Hawk’s skill instead of the other way

But I didn’t simply compare an interior player to a deep shooter. In fact, I specifically did not do that.

I compared AR to all of her teammates, but highlighted the ones who attempt at least 30% of their shots from within 3 feet of the rim. I then compared her to all of the starting forwards and centers (her position) in the WNBA, and even limited the field to players who attempt at least 4.5 shots per game within 5 feet (where most of her shots come from).

Even with a beneficial sample and ranking, Angel Reese has not scored the ball well this year at all. In my opinion, that lessens the impact and impressiveness of her double-double streak (as it relates to points).

This doesn’t mean she isn’t a good player or doesn’t have potential.

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

In general I think it’s a stretch to compare interior vs deep shooting
While Steph might have better scoring stroke than JV
JV could do way more damage from 3 than Steph could on the low block
The skill on the inside is getting into the right position (and timing), then having soft enough hands that you can go up strong but also apply touch at end

Put another way, Zion could way more easily replicate Hawk’s skill instead of the other way

This isn’t the argument I was making though. Interior vs deep shooting scoring are absolutely different skill sets. However, it is objectively harder to score from deep than within 5 feet of the basket. If you cannot score from such a close distance with a high % (with a lot of shot attempts), then you simply aren’t playing good, efficient basketball.

What JV could hypothetically do from 3 vs what Steph Curry could do on the block isn’t really important to me. No team that was serious about winning would give Jonas a ton of 3 point attempts (see his average 3 pt attempts per game), nor would they base their offense on Steph in the post. That is why we have not only fg %, but true shooting and effective fg %.

The point I was trying to make (possibly unclearly) was that even with JV shooting a very high % from close range, Steph still routinely has a higher true shooting % even though his overall fg % is always lower. It is about difficulty, efficiency, and points per attempt.

But while Steph’s TS% is typically only slightly higher than a Jonas-caliber player, Caitlyn Clark’s is 9 pts higher than Angel Reese’s. That was my main point.

 

[sfidc3]

Respectfully, I feel like I am keeping that in mind. I provided a lot of stats that support my definition and assessment of her offensive performance.

I gave her as favorable a statistical comparison as I could (limiting it to F/C positions, shot attempts per distance, and shot % per distance). C

I’m open to any other data, observations, or statistics you have though.

Also, every rookie could make the case that they are going up against players that are “quicker, bigger, stronger” than them, so I don’t really see how that helps Angel Reese, specifically, in the rookie of the year race.

Again, I’m not saying she isn’t a terrific player, or that she can’t get better. I just don’t think her offensive performance has taken her to rookie of the year level.

Fair enough, I think if there was a shots challenged stat it would help but there is not....

But, as I learned recently, it's important to keep in mind that shooting % in the WNBA is way lower than the NBA....at the same time, Reese definitely needs to improve her %.....

But that is just one part of the game, Reese is leading the entire league in rebounding (as a rookie) and has already set a record for consecutive double doubles....CC had done well also, it's clearly a two woman race.....no other rookies come close to what those 2 have done.....to say Reese's offensive performance is not worthy of rookie of the year makes no sense to me....