Saints at the top of Davante Adams’ wish list [Raiders trade Adams to Jets for conditional 3rd ; Jets paying Adams’ entire remaining salary] (2 Viewers)

[St. Widge]

Define “clean cap,” and look at what would have to be done to keep it “clean,” and tell me how much different that is compared to what we are doing now.

It all comes down to the coaches and players you choose, and we have failed miserably there. Football games aren’t won on financial budget spreadsheets.

Poor drafting and a (likely) bad decision at HC is what has us where we are, along of course with injuries. We literally signed the league’s highest paid free agent a year ago; finding money isn’t the problem, it’s what we are doing with it and who we are selecting that’s killing us.

Think of the cap as more of a never ending rolling five year budget accounting project rather than a one year/single season thing.

I don't disagree and I think some can kicking is appropriate to keep good to great young players. But doing that with 30 and over players just doesn't make a lot of sense for this team when it also includes void years. Especially when you are no longer in a truly competitive window. We need to start saving money for the next group of young good to great players.

I certainly agree that they need to draft better but I also think that right now, in the current circumstances, they need to start freeing up some future cap space in hopes that they do draft the right guys and find the right QB to build around. Because if we do, we want to have the money to keep those guys while still having the necessary depth for a competitive window.

 

[St. Widge]

So...the defene throttled down. Meh that's not quitting, and the lockeroom isn't lost.

The lockeroom may not be lost yet, but I'm not sure it can withstand a loss to Payton on Thursday. 5 loses in a row capped off by losing to your old coach is tough for any team to come back from. Especially when you have this many injuries.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Yeah I thought it was the GM too. Honestly I don't know the name of the Jets GM and I didn't know the name of their owner until now.

Honestly, I think @Elvis made a very good point in another thread. He said, perhaps the fan base would have an easier time digesting Allen and the teams current situation if we had just called it a soft reset from the start instead of constantly selling us that this is a good team.

The reality of the situation was rather Dire when Payton left

Star WR was injured on a well payed contract
Star LT was only playing in roughly 8-10 games a year on a well payed contract
Highly payed LG see above
QB1 was up in the air
Tight end was up in the air
Your 2nd round RG wasn't playing up to par
You didn't have a Z WR, Ted Ginn was the very last option you had there.

Only sure things at that time were Taysom, Kamara, and Eric McCoy, but somehow we were lead to believe that we'd be able to turn it around.


So, I guess Loomis does deserve some angst for not admitting to us and themselves we should have been in some sort of rebuild the moment Payton left. I still don't think Allen was the wrong choice and this was always going to be an uphill climb for him, but we were sold this continuation story that never had a chance in hell to be successful.

The lockeroom may not be lost yet, but I'm not sure it can withstand a loss to Payton on Thursday. 5 loses in a row capped off by losing to your old coach is tough for any team to come back from. Especially when you have this many injuries.

I concur

 

[saintsmarchin]

Ride it another year and hope for worst team in the league.

Arch Manning will have some growing pains but eventually he will be a every game near 300 yards passing QB and those seem to not exist anymore.

 

[St. Geezy]

I don't disagree and I think some can kicking is appropriate to keep good to great young players. But doing that with 30 and over players just doesn't make a lot of sense for this team when it also includes void years. Especially when you are no longer in a truly competitive window. We need to start saving money for the next group of young good to great players.

I certainly agree that they need to draft better but I also think that right now, in the current circumstances, they need to start freeing up some future cap space in hopes that they do draft the right guys and find the right QB to build around. Because if we do, we want to have the money to keep those guys while still having the necessary depth for a competitive window.

Very fair assessment. I know the system isn’t perfect and the things you point out are factors, I just feel as though we wouldn’t be worried about the financials if a.) we were healthy, b.) we drafted better, and c.) we had a coach of SP’s quality.

We are badly whiffing too often.

It’s like we sign most of the people we want to sign, including the highest paid guy available a year ago, are happy with the teams we field (specifically when we are rolling like we did to start this year), but once it falls apart, suddenly the spreadsheet gets blamed again.

We aren’t winning enough drafts or getting enough sheer luck in that area compared to some of our main competitors.

There are teams with “healthy” caps, perpetually with tons of space, and they’re perpetually losing because…they keep picking the wrong people. It’s the same difference, just looks more familiar and comfortable cosmetically. Your favorite team having cap space in a singular year is just a peace of mind thing.

 

[BreesusSaves]

Define “clean cap,” and look at what would have to be done to keep it “clean,” and tell me how much different that is compared to what we are doing now.

It all comes down to the coaches and players you choose, and we have failed miserably there. Football games aren’t won on financial budget spreadsheets.

Poor drafting and a (likely) bad decision at HC is what has us where we are, along of course with injuries. We literally signed the league’s highest paid free agent a year ago; finding money isn’t the problem, it’s what we are doing with it and who we are selecting that’s killing us.

Think of the cap as more of a never ending rolling five year budget accounting project rather than a one year/single season thing.

The five year budget accounting project where the big red number stays a big red number? I definitely agree the Saints have amplified their big red number problem with who they've signed. They've also continued to keep it a problem by doing things like handing out concerningly sized extensions to guys who are 30+.

Also I'm so done reposting the data that shows the Saints do just fine picking in the first and second rounds. They could do better in the third round but they also trade away their third round picks like crazy, personally I would like to see that stop. League wide success rate on fourth round picks signing a second contract is 30%. The average NFL career is 3.3 years. Any expectation to get even sustainable backups in the fourth round and later is unrealistic. That's like relying on scratchoff tickets to pay rent.

And yes, football games are won with the help of financial budget spreadsheets. Having a more manageable cap number would prevent things like picking Hendrickson or Williams, instead they'd be able to keep both. That's a situation where money matters. Keeping the prime talent they draft in house.

The Lions just lost Aiden Hutchinson to a terrible injury. They have the cap space to easily trade for Maxx Crosby if they want and Las Vegas agrees to it. Again, cap space keeps their options wide open. Next year the Lions have the cap space to not sweat losing any of their key free agents.

Now the Saints cap is also partially destroyed because of two freak injuries. CGM's career being ended by an ankle injury and Ram's career being ending by degenerative knee tissue is just awful. However if the Saints weren't as deep in the red as they were, these two injuries would have hurt the cap less.

The COVID year. Every team got hurt by the cap, but the Saints got crushed by it. Sure, no one saw it coming, but at the same time, if you're not wildly in the red every year, the unexpected hurts less.

The way the Saints operate gives them zero margin for error and injury in a sport filled with errors and injuries. They don't need to be one of those underspending teams with $50m in cap space during the season, but they also don't need to be a team with over $80m in red annually.

 

[DSnfla]

I want to know how much of the salary the Jets are taking on or if they made the trade conditional based on a new or restructured contract.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a rental for the remainder of the season considering Rodgers might well retire anyway. If that's the case, they'll cut him after the season is over and he'll be a FA at that point.

There are probably some parameters laid out for beyond this yr. I doubt even the Jets are dumb enough to look at it as giving up 3rd and 11+mil for a 1 yr rental.

 

[DSnfla]

Player/Coach/GM Aaron Rodgers putting in work the last 10 days.

1st he got Saleh fired.
2nd he saved his boy Hackett's job.
3rd he saved his other boy from the Raiders and got him traded to the Jets.

Hackett has his job but not play calling duties anymore

 

[efil4stnias]

I don't think that's quitting, I'd call that throttling down lol. I mean everyone has been cool w/ Chase Young doing it when the QB is too far away etc. His effort is there until he does't believe the effort will make a difference.

So...the defene throttled down. Meh that's not quitting, and the lockeroom isn't lost.



See above

if you hired a contractor to build your home and half-way thru he said that your design is too intricate and that he gonna move on to other clients, may show up and finish or not, or may just do over the course of next few years, is that quitting or throttling down?

More importantly, you cool with that?

this is insane - its game 5 of 17 and we are looking for ways to mitigate the "quit" and morph it into some lesser-explicit term?

aiight.

 

[St. Geezy]

The five year budget accounting project where the big red number stays a big red number? I definitely agree the Saints have amplified their big red number problem with who they've signed. They've also continued to keep it a problem by doing things like handing out concerningly sized extensions to guys who are 30+.

Also I'm so done reposting the data that shows the Saints do just fine picking in the first and second rounds. They could do better in the third round but they also trade away their third round picks like crazy, personally I would like to see that stop. League wide success rate on fourth round picks signing a second contract is 30%. The average NFL career is 3.3 years. Any expectation to get even sustainable backups in the fourth round and later is unrealistic. That's like relying on scratchoff tickets to pay rent.

And yes, football games are won with the help of financial budget spreadsheets. Having a more manageable cap number would prevent things like picking Hendrickson or Williams, instead they'd be able to keep both. That's a situation where money matters. Keeping the prime talent they draft in house.

The Lions just lost Aiden Hutchinson to a terrible injury. They have the cap space to easily trade for Maxx Crosby if they want and Las Vegas agrees to it. Again, cap space keeps their options wide open. Next year the Lions have the cap space to not sweat losing any of their key free agents.

Now the Saints cap is also partially destroyed because of two freak injuries. CGM's career being ended by an ankle injury and Ram's career being ending by degenerative knee tissue is just awful. However if the Saints weren't as deep in the red as they were, these two injuries would have hurt the cap less.

The COVID year. Every team got hurt by the cap, but the Saints got crushed by it. Sure, no one saw it coming, but at the same time, if you're not wildly in the red every year, the unexpected hurts less.

The way the Saints operate gives them zero margin for error and injury in a sport filled with errors and injuries. They don't need to be one of those underspending teams with $50m in cap space during the season, but they also don't need to be a team with over $80m in red annually.

That’s fair…I can’t defend too much because the strategy hasn’t worked in winning us a championship; we just disagree on causality, chicken/egg stuff. I think the strategy isn’t being vilified if we got better at drafting on day 2 and 3 (or luckier), stayed reasonably healthier, and we had better leadership.

Regardless though, your points aren’t falling on deaf ears and I understand the sentiment.

 

[BreesusSaves]

That’s fair…I can’t defend too much because the strategy hasn’t worked in winning us a championship; we just disagree on causality, chicken/egg stuff. I think the strategy isn’t being vilified if we got better at drafting on day 2 and 3 (or luckier), stayed reasonably healthier, and we had better leadership.

Regardless though, your points aren’t falling on deaf ears and I understand the sentiment.

I will say this, when Brees was here, I was thrilled they kicked that can like Team Rocket was blasting off again. When you have that kind of guy with that overall roster, you spare no expense. It is criminal not to.

 

[Innominate]

For a conditional 3rd rounder.

Hopefully for him he doesn't run the wrong route

 

[DSnfla]

The five year budget accounting project where the big red number stays a big red number? I definitely agree the Saints have amplified their big red number problem with who they've signed. They've also continued to keep it a problem by doing things like handing out concerningly sized extensions to guys who are 30+.

Also I'm so done reposting the data that shows the Saints do just fine picking in the first and second rounds. They could do better in the third round but they also trade away their third round picks like crazy, personally I would like to see that stop. League wide success rate on fourth round picks signing a second contract is 30%. The average NFL career is 3.3 years. Any expectation to get even sustainable backups in the fourth round and later is unrealistic. That's like relying on scratchoff tickets to pay rent.

And yes, football games are won with the help of financial budget spreadsheets. Having a more manageable cap number would prevent things like picking Hendrickson or Williams, instead they'd be able to keep both. That's a situation where money matters. Keeping the prime talent they draft in house.

The Lions just lost Aiden Hutchinson to a terrible injury. They have the cap space to easily trade for Maxx Crosby if they want and Las Vegas agrees to it. Again, cap space keeps their options wide open. Next year the Lions have the cap space to not sweat losing any of their key free agents.

Now the Saints cap is also partially destroyed because of two freak injuries. CGM's career being ended by an ankle injury and Ram's career being ending by degenerative knee tissue is just awful. However if the Saints weren't as deep in the red as they were, these two injuries would have hurt the cap less.

The COVID year. Every team got hurt by the cap, but the Saints got crushed by it. Sure, no one saw it coming, but at the same time, if you're not wildly in the red every year, the unexpected hurts less.

The way the Saints operate gives them zero margin for error and injury in a sport filled with errors and injuries. They don't need to be one of those underspending teams with $50m in cap space during the season, but they also don't need to be a team with over $80m in red annually.

You can post and re-post draft data all you like but your conclusion is wrong. 2017 is ancient history when it comes to the draft. In the last 5 yrs we have not done well in the 1st 2 rds. You imply that just because we get a starter in a mediocre or even bad position or that they got a 2nd contract they are good picks. That is not the case. Research the teams that had the best drafts in the last 5 yrs and you will NOT find the Saints

You give the Lions as an example of great cap mgt. DUH, 80% of their start players are on rookie deals, and do you know why? Because they had a tremendous amount of VERY high 1,2, and 3rd rd picks due to sucking for the last 8+ yrs AND the trade for Stafford. With that kind of draft capitol it would take the worst FO and coaching staff in history to mess that up

 

[DaveXA]

You didn't know the name of the Jets owner? A guy named Woody Johnson?!? That's a hard name to forget.

Oh it's hard alright.

 

[DSnfla]

Reports were that the sticking point for the Saints was draft pick compensation. So maybe Mickey came to his senses, realized he wasn't dealing with Howie Roseman, and refused to give up the 2nd round pick?

Where did you hear it was about draft compensation ? Neither Underhill nor Jackson said anything about that. I'm betting it was way more about his salary this yr because Davis is poor and did NOT want to eat the rest of this yr