Should have kept Jameis (1 Viewer)

[RJS]

This is still all true. Not one iota of contradictory evidence to date. No 'eye test' here. No narrative. No hopeless extrapolation of cherry picked statistics. He's a backup QB as far as the people whose opinion counts are concerned. People in the media say things that have no impact on actual football decisions.

"Thee who quoths thyself on an internet forum renders himself a squire to fools"

- Henry Tudor VII

 

[jahsoul357]

I'm sorry, is someone citing Chris Simms as being equal to Kurt Warner? A Super Bowl winner and Hall of Famer vs. a JAG who consistently didn't rank Drew Brees in the top half of the league? That Chris Simms?

Shhh...Chris Simms is an expert and he was used because he give in depth, expert analysis of QB. This is how he comes up with is Top 40 list. Speaking about the Top 40 list....

@TribuneUK If you believe Simms and his expert opinion, is Anthony Richardson a bonified starter and is Will Levis a better QB than Jayden Daniels?

That was the point, it was a deliberately perverse comparison. Because despite how we might perceive them stood next to each other, they're still both just media guys. Warner has no more sway in the decision making of NFL franchises than Chris Simms does.

The fact that you believe that Simms and Warner are the same in how they present data shows your problem. I know that you might not look at this because it is too much technical football talk but there is a very distinct different in how they present data and formulate opinions.



And Kurt Warner is fair in all of his evaluations, so he is also critical of bad plays.

Nobody is stating that Warner is swaying NFL franchises. What it exposes is:
-More people talk football than know football
-A lot of decisions aren't made based on what happens on the field

You are probably trying to downplay what Kurt Warner said because it craps all over your "eye test" told you. Imagine holding on to all these things you thought was true and a QB who has held the highest accolades in the sport curb stomps it. Probably won't get a straight answer but we can revisit this thread at the end of the season tho, since he was officially named the full-time starter for the rest of the season.

 

[TribuneUK]

"Thee who quoths thyself on an internet forum renders himself a squire to fools"

- Henry Tudor VII

"He who finds others incapable of following what he wrote the first time is doomed to repeat himself."

- Me

 

[B4YOU]

I said in the off-season that Winston would replace Watson. I didn’t think it would be by injury, but instead better play.

I don’t think keeping Winston was tenable after his defiance.

 

[kcirdor]

"Thee who quoths thyself on an internet forum renders himself a squire to fools"

- Henry Tudor VII

it's called receipts...

 

[jahsoul357]

I said in the off-season that Winston would replace Watson. I didn’t think it would be by injury, but instead better play.

I said that most would see that he was the better QB during the summer and now reports are seeping out that he was always the best QB in that room and the only reason he wasn't the starter and captain coming into the season was $230 million guaranteed. Apparently, front office politics....

I don’t think keeping Winston was tenable after his defiance.

Agreed. After that play, I knew he was gone. lol

 

[Alan12]

If Lamar Jackson threw that same pass and then followed with a perfectly thrown TD, everyone would be talking about his resilience. lol. Some things are magnified for some and swept under the rug for others.

Considering he has a 3:1 TD-INT ratio for his career, I'd say Jackson has more than earned that "goodwill" from football fans you mentioned earlier. Winston's not even at a 1.5:1 TD-INT ratio for his career, that's why he's critiqued far more stringently.

Winston has only 3 more career passing TD's than Jackson does along with 52 more INT's, neither casual or diehard football fans will give him that benefit of the doubt when he's that prone to turning the ball over at any given moment.

I enjoyed the video as well, but it still highlights Winston again doing something he probably shouldn't be doing in that situation and almost paying for it. Granted like I mentioned about Jackson's two near picks, this one did happen in the 1st quarter, but unlike the Ravens, the Browns would've lost those 3 points they put up at the end of that drive.

 

[jahsoul357]

Considering he has a 3:1 TD-INT ratio for his career, I'd say Jackson has more than earned that "goodwill" from football fans you mentioned earlier. Winston's not even at a 1.5:1 TD-INT ratio for his career, that's why he's critiqued far more stringently.

Alan, I really enjoy convos like these because it really allows us to peel back the layers. As mentioned, we don't evaluate on the "what" but we let the "who" determine how we see things. So we ignore the fact that Jameis has been asked to do infinitely more in the pass game than Lamar Jackson has. Or do we speak to how scheme helps QBs now more than ever?



Imagine comparing someone who throws to receivers wide open in space to someone who is in a scheme were the receivers get little separation and you are near the top of the league in tight window throws. This is what we do when we just look at people stats. We never take what the QB is asked to do into consideration; we make things 1:1.

The truth is he is critiqued far more stringently by those who look at stats/clips more than games/film....

Winston has only 3 more career passing TD's than Jackson does along with 52 more INT's, neither casual or diehard football fans will give him that benefit of the doubt when he's that prone to turning the ball over at any given moment.

Casual or diehard football fans should know that....*secret*....the Ravens success never lies in Lamar Jackson's arm. The foundation to their success is always the run game. It has great numbers but when you see what is asked of them in the pass game, it makes more sense. Especially when you realize the Ravens lose every playoff game with Lamar when they pass more than they run. And this isn't a knock on him; I love his play and what he does. I just also recognize his game.

I enjoyed the video as well, but it still highlights Winston again doing something he probably shouldn't be doing in that situation and almost paying for it. Granted like I mentioned about Jackson's two near picks, this one did happen in the 1st quarter, but unlike the Ravens, the Browns would've lost those 3 points they put up at the end of that drive.

That's why I love Kurt's breakdowns; the truth have no feelings. The problem is what's in the eye of the beholder. With us knowing that the first near pick in the end zone was a product of miscommunication and not some YOLO ball, what did you see in terms of decision making? You might have seen some bad throws (the almost pick that nearly sealed the game looked more of a bad throw because the decision was 100% correct), but what do you see more of?

-Elite footwork
-Elite pocket movement/awareness
-Elite anticipation
-Proper pre-snap read/checks and elite post-snap processing

Funny enough, again, those are things that we (as a fanbase) swore he sucked at. lol. 3-4 plays out of 50 is always the story with Jameis, because even with those throws, play for play and throw for throw, he still played better than Lamar with receivers that people swore were bums last week. *shrugs*

 

[Deuuuuce]

Alan, I really enjoy convos like these because it really allows us to peel back the layers. As mentioned, we don't evaluate on the "what" but we let the "who" determine how we see things. So we ignore the fact that Jameis has been asked to do infinitely more in the pass game than Lamar Jackson has. Or do we speak to how scheme helps QBs now more than ever?



Imagine comparing someone who throws to receivers wide open in space to someone who is in a scheme were the receivers get little separation and you are near the top of the league in tight window throws. This is what we do when we just look at people stats. We never take what the QB is asked to do into consideration; we make things 1:1.

The truth is he is critiqued far more stringently by those who look at stats/clips more than games/film....


Casual or diehard football fans should know that....*secret*....the Ravens success never lies in Lamar Jackson's arm. The foundation to their success is always the run game. It has great numbers but when you see what is asked of them in the pass game, it makes more sense. Especially when you realize the Ravens lose every playoff game with Lamar when they pass more than they run. And this isn't a knock on him; I love his play and what he does. I just also recognize his game.



That's why I love Kurt's breakdowns; the truth have no feelings. The problem is what's in the eye of the beholder. With us knowing that the first near pick in the end zone was a product of miscommunication and not some YOLO ball, what did you see in terms of decision making? You might have seen some bad throws (the almost pick that nearly sealed the game looked more of a bad throw because the decision was 100% correct), but what do you see more of?

-Elite footwork
-Elite pocket movement/awareness
-Elite anticipation
-Proper pre-snap read/checks and elite post-snap processing

Funny enough, again, those are things that we (as a fanbase) swore he sucked at. lol. 3-4 plays out of 50 is always the story with Jameis, because even with those throws, play for play and throw for throw, he still played better than Lamar with receivers that people swore were bums last week. *shrugs*

At this point I’m convinced you are Jameis Winston or a family member. Literally no one but you maybe not even Jameis himself would consider putting him in the same class as Lamar Jackson. You’re creating layers to this topic that arent there because Jameis had one good week.

 

[jahsoul357]

At this point I’m convinced you are Jameis Winston or a family member. Literally no one but you maybe not even Jameis himself would consider putting him in the same class as Lamar Jackson. You’re creating layers to this topic that arent there because Jameis had one good week.

This is the response of someone who know they can't really refute anything I said. We live in a "football society" that believes success equals skill. You will say that Jameis and Lamar isn't in the same tier but what you will point to is Lamar's success and accolades. But if you had an honest conversation about the position itself (which most don't), what I'm saying is clear. Who makes better anticipatory throws? Who is better in the pocket? Who is better at processing the field? Who has better footwork? These are things that yall never talk about when talking about QB play. You only talk about "success." There is a reason why Harbaugh (smartly) scrapped the entire Ravens timing based, WCO going into 2019. Because we all saw Lamar run it in 2018 and it wasn't pretty. They built a scheme around his strengths and what he does. This isn't saying that Lamar hasn't gotten better at passing over the years. This is saying that there are offenses that Lamar could not play in. This is why I bring up coaching and scheme the way that I do; most don't even know some of their favorites are "schemed" for success.

You think Russ fell off a cliff because of age? Crap no; he fell off a cliff because he wanted to be seen in more of a traditional QB light but that has never been his skillset. You remember when everybody wanted him here and I said that it wasn't a good fit because skillwise, Russ and CSP were like oil and water, and then everyone brought up his past success?

And this isn't just talking about one good game, as more often than not, he had games like this in Tampa. The Bucs just always had a bad defense (funny how we understand this concept in a limited scope).

 

[Deuuuuce]

This is the response of someone who know they can't really refute anything I said. We live in a "football society" that believes success equals skill. You will say that Jameis and Lamar isn't in the same tier but what you will point to is Lamar's success and accolades. But if you had an honest conversation about the position itself (which most don't), what I'm saying is clear. Who makes better anticipatory throws? Who is better in the pocket? Who is better at processing the field? Who has better footwork? These are things that yall never talk about when talking about QB play. You only talk about "success." There is a reason why Harbaugh (smartly) scrapped the entire Ravens timing based, WCO going into 2019. Because we all saw Lamar run it in 2018 and it wasn't pretty. They built a scheme around his strengths and what he does. This isn't saying that Lamar hasn't gotten better at passing over the years. This is saying that there are offenses that Lamar could not play in. This is why I bring up coaching and scheme the way that I do; most don't even know some of their favorites are "schemed" for success.

You think Russ fell off a cliff because of age? Crap no; he fell off a cliff because he wanted to be seen in more of a traditional QB light but that has never been his skillset. You remember when everybody wanted him here and I said that it wasn't a good fit because skillwise, Russ and CSP were like oil and water, and then everyone brought up his past success?

And this isn't just talking about one good game, as more often than not, he had games like this in Tampa. The Bucs just always had a bad defense (funny how we understand this concept in a limited scope).

I’m not refuting you because of your obvious bias. ‘We live in a football society that believes success equals skill’? Are you okay man?

 

[jahsoul357]

I’m not refuting you because of your obvious bias. ‘We live in a football society that believes success equals skill’? Are you okay man?

Bias? How is there bias by saying that when talking about the quarterback position, yall don't actually talk about skill at the position; you talk about success? And I was very clear with that point. This also isn't saying that Lamar Jackson is a bad QB; he is a different type of QB but if you asked him to do traditional QB things, he won't. Everybody cries over Sean Payton not picking him in 2018, but ask yourself, would he be a fit? Do you think Sean Payton, as a playcaller and what he likes to do, would scrap his entire offense for a RPO style, run based offense? Jackson worked because he had a coach who fired his entire offensive staff to build an offense around Lamar's skillset. It seems like yall are purposely missing that part.

 

[UFCSaint]

At this point I’m convinced you are Jameis Winston or a family member. Literally no one but you maybe not even Jameis himself would consider putting him in the same class as Lamar Jackson. You’re creating layers to this topic that arent there because Jameis had one good week.

It's the same 3 or 4 guys every time. I know this because I blocked them back when I finally got sick of the crap... And now every time threads pop up about JW.... I see a whole lot of... "You are ignoring content by this member"

 

[Deuuuuce]

It's the same 3 or 4 guys every time. I know this because I blocked them back when I finally got sick of the crap... And now every time threads pop up about JW.... I see a whole lot of... "You are ignoring content by this member"

You’re not missing anything lol. I don’t know why I get sucked in to this debate all the time. I think it just bugs me because this topic always comes up when the Saints are doing bad and that is when the few that you’re talking about really start to troll.

 

[sfidc3]

I mean, I was among the biggest JW fans on the board, he's not here any longer.....I'm still a fan and wish him well unless he's playing the Saints....

With the right OC and offense I think JW could be a quality starter, I think CSP was on his way to proving that until the injury happened....we will see what happens from here on out....