Star Wars Stand Alone Films (1 Viewer)

[Booker]

You know what's crazy? I knew conversations like this one would inevitably happen with Star Wars after Disney got them, but I figured we would have at least a decade of solid times before the varnish started to wear off. And here we are 4 years into the partnership talking about changing leadership at Lucasfilm, plummeting toy sales, divided fan bases, etc.

That is pretty mindblowing, especially just a couple of years removed from TFA pulling in $2 billion. What's done is done, but for all the problems with TLJ I can't help but wonder, had they just listened to Mark Hamill and given Luke Skywalker a more satisfactory story, how different would the situation be today? Think about the Darth Vader scene in Rogue One -- literally like 15 seconds of pure fan service -- but how much did that one scene improve the movie? How much better would TLJ hold up if it just gave fans just a little bit of the Jedi master we'd been waiting 30 years to see, or at least not killed him off so you could hope to see him in episode IX? And how could no one see that would cause problems with the fan base?

 

[kcirdor]

I was told by a parent friend of mine, that the only new toy from the TLJ after TFA was Kylo's Tie Fighter. Everything else was repackaged TFA toys.

 

[Sun Wukong]

That is pretty mindblowing, especially just a couple of years removed from TFA pulling in $2 billion. What's done is done, but for all the problems with TLJ I can't help but wonder, had they just listened to Mark Hamill and given Luke Skywalker a more satisfactory story, how different would the situation be today? Think about the Darth Vader scene in Rogue One -- literally like 15 seconds of pure fan service -- but how much did that one scene improve the movie? How much better would TLJ hold up if it just gave fans just a little bit of the Jedi master we'd been waiting 30 years to see, or at least not killed him off so you could hope to see him in episode IX? And how could no one see that would cause problems with the fan base?

Purely anecdotal, but the opening night crowd I saw TLJ with was very much with the movie until Luke's death. In fact, when it cuts from the fight between him and Kylo to show that he's still on Ahch-To and is force projecting an image, that got an audible cheer from the crowd. People were still very much into it. After he died? The entire mood of the theater changed. Some guy even punched a chair.

I think creators should work to make sure the things they're producing don't become complete fanservice. That gets bad really quickly (for example, the last season of Game of Thrones felt less like Martin's work and more like D&D checking off fanservice boxes. Some is fine, but too much is blah.), but at the same time I think Rian Johnson became so concerned with subverting expectations that he lost the forrest for the trees.

You just lost Han in The Force Awakens. People haven 't seen Luke doing Jedi things in over thirty years. We get teased with it and then its ripped away. Again, thematically I get what he's going for there. I have no problem with a disillusioned Luke wanting to throw in the towel, coming around on things, or even sacrificing himself for the greater good. In fact, on that last note I actually love the idea of him coming to realize that the "legend" of Luke Skywalker standing against the First Order is what will reignite the rebellion and see the Jedi reborn. Luke Skywalker as a symbol, as a legend can do more than real Luke Skywalker with a lightsaber could hope to. On paper, that's a pretty solid approach.

But it didn't feel earned. The entire story arc felt too rushed and compressed. And again, you've lost two major original trilogy characters in two movies. And while no one could foresee Carrie Fisher dying, that just compounds the issue. As much as I don't believe in all fanservice all the time, just asking yourself as the writer "Is killing off Han Solo and Luke Skywalker in back to back movies the best thing to do?" may be a smart move.

And yeah, force ghosts are a thing but it's not the same.

 

[2009ring]

Purely anecdotal, but the opening night crowd I saw TLJ with was very much with the movie until Luke's death. In fact, when it cuts from the fight between him and Kylo to show that he's still on Ahch-To and is force projecting an image, that got an audible cheer from the crowd. People were still very much into it. After he died? The entire mood of the theater changed. Some guy even punched a chair.

I think creators should work to make sure the things they're producing don't become complete fanservice. That gets bad really quickly (for example, the last season of Game of Thrones felt less like Martin's work and more like D&D checking off fanservice boxes. Some is fine, but too much is blah.), but at the same time I think Rian Johnson became so concerned with subverting expectations that he lost the forrest for the trees.

You just lost Han in The Force Awakens. People haven 't seen Luke doing Jedi things in over thirty years. We get teased with it and then its ripped away. Again, thematically I get what he's going for there. I have no problem with a disillusioned Luke wanting to throw in the towel, coming around on things, or even sacrificing himself for the greater good. In fact, on that last note I actually love the idea of him coming to realize that the "legend" of Luke Skywalker standing against the First Order is what will reignite the rebellion and see the Jedi reborn. Luke Skywalker as a symbol, as a legend can do more than real Luke Skywalker with a lightsaber could hope to. On paper, that's a pretty solid approach.

But it didn't feel earned. The entire story arc felt too rushed and compressed. And again, you've lost two major original trilogy characters in two movies. And while no one could foresee Carrie Fisher dying, that just compounds the issue. As much as I don't believe in all fanservice all the time, just asking yourself as the writer "Is killing off Han Solo and Luke Skywalker in back to back movies the best thing to do?" may be a smart move.

And yeah, force ghosts are a thing but it's not the same.

To be honest if there was one scene I would love to remove from TLJ, it's the one where Luke cavalierly tosses the light sabre over his shoulder down the hill and walks away. Like you said, fans like me have been waiting 30+ years to see Luke again and to have that be the first thing we really see after being teased two years ago? No way.

I will say the projection-Luke fighting Kylo, for the 20 seconds it happened - was awesome. 60 year old Luke with those moves was exactly what I would have paid $20 to see 2 hours of. Not 20 seconds of it.

I don't hate TLJ, but there were some things as you say that a modest amount of fan service would have fixed.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

To be honest if there was one scene I would love to remove from TLJ, it's the one where Luke cavalierly tosses the light sabre over his shoulder down the hill and walks away. Like you said, fans like me have been waiting 30+ years to see Luke again and to have that be the first thing we really see after being teased two years ago? No way.

See, to my way of thinking that’s pretty strong story-telling (if you want the story to evolve vs circle back on itself)
At the beginning of the movie you very succinctly allude to 30 years of backstory and signal that ‘we’re not telling a nostalgic story’

I get that’s not what done people want
But if you’re going to re-direct the story, that’s a great way to do it

 

[Booker]

One of my issues with the film was the inconsistent tone, and I think this scene is a great example of how it really hurt what they were trying to accomplish. It was meant to show a somber rejection of the past, but it came across as slapstick. After two years of the audience waiting to see what happens, he takes the lightsaber, glares at Rey and then tosses it over his shoulder and storms off. All that was missing was a laugh track. If instead he had taken it but glared at the lightsaber, maybe close in on his face as he contemplates its significance, and then just dropped it and walked away in a defeated manner (and not as an angry toddler), it could have come across much more powerfully. Instead they went for a cheap laugh.

 

[Sun Wukong]

I think that's my issue with it. I have no problem with Luke rejecting the lightsaber. But him tossing it over his shoulder like that, then seeing the porgs messing around with it turned what could have been a really powerful moment into a gag.

Again, I actually have very little issue with what Johnson was trying to do thematically in this movie. I actually really like a lot of it conceptually. But the execution isn't there. The moments don't feel earned. The tone is inconsistent.

 

[St. Geezy]

So there was recently another round of rumors/leaks regarding Kennedy, specifically that with the standalones on hold and full control of episode IX ceded to JJ Abrams she's effectively uninvolved with all projects going forward at this point. There's also the story out that Sun Wukong mentioned, that there was a big Disney/Lucasfilm conference call, including the honchos at Pixar and Marvel, about the state of the franchise and blaming Kennedy for killing the golden goose. Disney really wants Kennedy fired but the problem they've run into is that no one wants to take her place, and part of the problem for whoever replaces her, as Sun Wukong mentioned, is that there are split loyalties at Lucasfilm between Kennedy loyalists who she brought on board and those that preceded them.

There's also speculation about whether merchandising issues may be involved with the current suspension of standalone movies. Apparently the contract with Hasbro expires in 2020, and after taking big losses on the last two movies, and with nothing definitive lined up beyond episode IX in 2019, Hasbro is balking at reupping at the previous rate.

Otherwise, regarding episode IX, there was a pretty big spoiler that got leaked back in May that I'm hoping turns out to be false. I generally tried to avoid all spoilers for TFA and TLJ, but curiosity got the best of me, just wondering how they were going to pick things back up after TLJ. The person providing the spoilers claimed to have seen early storyboards, and also had accurately spoiled a number of things from TLJ. The big thing was...

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...that Kylo and Rey have a secret child, apparently conceived during one of their force-timing sessions. I do recall how they showed Kylo got wet while communing with Rey when she was in the rain or something, so perhaps that was a set up to establish that fluids can be transferred via the force. This sounds just stupid enough that it might actually be true.

If that rumor was true, then I will be fully convinced that ruining Star Wars is all a sabotage job.

 

[2009ring]

I think that's my issue with it. I have no problem with Luke rejecting the lightsaber. But him tossing it over his shoulder like that, then seeing the porgs messing around with it turned what could have been a really powerful moment into a gag.

Again, I actually have very little issue with what Johnson was trying to do thematically in this movie. I actually really like a lot of it conceptually. But the execution isn't there. The moments don't feel earned. The tone is inconsistent.

This is exactly what I was trying to say....

 

[Tapxe]

NSFW. Language... One f bomb.


View: https://youtu.be/9icfFhIIb9U

 

[DaveXA]

I think that's my issue with it. I have no problem with Luke rejecting the lightsaber. But him tossing it over his shoulder like that, then seeing the porgs messing around with it turned what could have been a really powerful moment into a gag.

Again, I actually have very little issue with what Johnson was trying to do thematically in this movie. I actually really like a lot of it conceptually. But the execution isn't there. The moments don't feel earned. The tone is inconsistent.

Agree 100%. I think there were little things that I would consider lack of attention to detail that cheapens TLJ. I liked a lot of what the movie brought to the table, but the Luke toss and later his death and Leia's 'Mary Poppins' scene left much to be desired and really cheapened the overall product. TLJ could have been a pretty spectacular movie, but they missed the mark. Which sucks. I love everything Star Wars, so it's disappointing that we're seeing the series flounder a bit.

 

[Tapxe]

I think that's my issue with it. I have no problem with Luke rejecting the lightsaber. But him tossing it over his shoulder like that, then seeing the porgs messing around with it turned what could have been a really powerful moment into a gag.

Again, I actually have very little issue with what Johnson was trying to do thematically in this movie. I actually really like a lot of it conceptually. But the execution isn't there. The moments don't feel earned. The tone is inconsistent.

Sounds like you have expectations of exactly what should have been done and they were not met. I went in with no expectations and enjoyed the comedy of that scene.

Sometimes you have to just enjoy something for what it is rather than what you want it to be.

 

[Sun Wukong]

Sounds like you have expectations of exactly what should have been done and they were not met. I went in with no expectations and enjoyed the comedy of that scene.

Sometimes you have to just enjoy something for what it is rather than what you want it to be.

If you're going to approach everything like that, there's no point in even thinking about what you're watching. You're basically saying you shouldn't think about whether or not the comedy worked in that scene or if it was out of place tonally, and instead you should say "Rian Johnson wanted it that way, so it must be enjoyable!" which is not how criticism works. It's not how it's ever worked.

 

[Tapxe]

If you're going to approach everything like that, there's no point in even thinking about what you're watching. You're basically saying you shouldn't think about whether or not the comedy worked in that scene or if it was out of place tonally, and instead you should say "Rian Johnson wanted it that way, so it must be enjoyable!" which is not how criticism works. It's not how it's ever worked.

Not at all. It's saying that you just try to enjoy the moment and decide at the point when something happens if you are objectively entertained or not. Maybe you did that and were not entertained and I was way off base. If that's the case, my apologies.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Not at all. It's saying that you just try to enjoy the moment and decide at the point when something happens if you are objectively entertained or not. Maybe you did that and were not entertained and I was way off base. If that's the case, my apologies.

when i first came back to NO, i had a younger theatre colleague who had not seen much concert dance in his life - he loved each and everything he saw
OTOH i had seen 100s of concerts and 1000s of dance pieces
he was a bit sad that i couldn't "enjoy" dance the way he could b/c i was so over-saturated
I knew that he would not always be as naively blissful once he had seen a critical mass of dance - it took about 3 years - he came to me " yeah...some dance sucks'