The organization and the culture (4 Viewers)

[VikesFan2017]

Hi all,

I saw this thread was about agony so I just wanted to submit my entry.
The Minnesota Vikings have a record 31 playoff losses with zero Super Bowls wins. Dallas ties us with most playoff losses with 31, but they have won Super Bowls.

We have now lost our last 6 consecutive NFC Championship games.
We have all flavors of them.
1. Road favorite and demolished 41-0 against the Giants.
2. Early lead against Philly only to get run over the rest of the game (2017) then have the Eagles win a Super Bowl In our stadium.
3. Heavy favorite - choked at home (after having a lead) against the Falcons. (1998)
4. Nerve-racking game goes into OT against the Saints and lose. (2009)
5. Sleeper/underdog team in 1987 gets stifled at the goal line on the final drive by Washington (1987)
6. Lose to Dallas in a last gasp of the Purple People Eaters Era (1977)

Some of these have history around a specific play or other conspiracy tied to them, but the actual "Hail Mary" play get it's name against us because of our best team of the 1970's was upset at home. (12-2 regular season record).

Hail Mary pass - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Oh, and DREW PEARSON PUSHED OFF!


The 2009 game against the Saints had several big errors / mistakes by the Vikings including the fumble at the goal line right before the half and the Favre interception at the end.

We've had a lot of other bad playoff losses including losing at home to bad teams (Giants in 2022-23 (9-7-1 team beats 13-4 Vikings)).
In 1994 we lost at home to a bad 9-7 Bears team led by Steve Walsh (a Minnesota kid).
In 1992 we lost at home to a 9-7 Washington team

Has your kicker ever missed a 27 yard field goal at home to advance in the playoffs? We have that here:


The 2009 and 1998 Championship games have paragraphs of content on there own from missed field goals from a kicker who never missed to fumbles, to taking a knee when you have time left in the game, to having your running back run out of bounds repeatedly while trying to kill a clock.

Wrap this up with the fact we have 4 major men's pro franchises in this town / state between the NHL, MLB, NFL and NBA, and it's been since 1991 that we've had any team even APPEAR in a actual championship game or series.

Knowing many Saints fans hate the Vikings almost as much as the Falcons, perhaps you can find some joy in however we screw it up this year. Potentially as a #1 seed.

 

[texasjefe]

What has happened is our fans have lost the stomach to deal with a rebuild. The truth is that we are in a rebuild and our fans are already losing their sheet over a 5 win season with a huge number of injuries. If they really tore it all down our fans wouldn't be able to deal with it.

The Saints are not yet in a rebuild. See Kamara extension.

The fans do not deserved to be shamed by you. That's ridiculous. That's what Loomis does.

Every year Mickey builds a team for that year, not for the future. It's the financial environment he created. He drafts fewer players every year because he thinks his roster and depth and coach are solid, when they are bottom of the league now. He keeps aging vets because they are his friends. Dennis Allen is his friend. Drafting less players also means less maturing contracts in the future.

You think he's in a rebuild, I say he lost control of his MO, balancing future dead caps against talent acquisition. He lost control, lies about it, and now we are looking at rebuilding with way too much of our cap UNAVAILABLE for the next 3 years!

This is grounds for termination (forced retirement) for any sane owner or upper manager out there.

Grounds for forced termination also would be:

4 non-playoff seasons in a row

Losing potential 2nd contract talent, starters, to other teams for practically nothing in return - because the Saints have no compelling QB that is attractive to play along with.

Never drafting a replacement for Drew. If Payton really wanted Mahomes, he would've been ready not to be jumped. And they passed over Lamar Jackson for Marcus Davenport.

Lastly, insulting the fans by saying maybe DA is Chuck Noll and other HoF coaches, only 11 months later having the owner shove Loomis in the closet and fire DA herself.

Where I take some comfort is knowing that the fans in the city are more where I am, far more than where the "oh Mickey's not so bad, it's not his fault" posters here.

Everyone's eyes are on Loomis a week from today to learn Rizzi's fate. But my eyes are on Gayle Benson, to see if she keeps sticking with this dinosaur loser GM and his crippling addictions.

 

[Moon]

Is it your opinion that there can ONLY be one loser franchise? I've never said the Saints were the ONLY losing franchise, just that we are one. And one can most CERTAINLY make the argument that the Saints have a Top 5 argument for ignominious moments in the league. There is more than ONE winning franchise, like: the Steelers, 49ers, Patriots, Chiefs, and despite the board's hatred of them, the Cowboys. And while they have had 30 years of recent misery, they still have what, 5 Lombardis.

I understand it. We had one glorious moment in the sun, literally almost every thing else (aside from individual accolades) was disappointment in some form or fashion when it came to winning in big moments when it counted. And YES, Dan Campbell is a loser until he wins it all. The NFL isn't a participation trophy praising league. The Lamar Hunt and George Halas Trophies are nice to have but history only really cares about the Lombardi.

Winning in the regular season is nice but it doesn't mean anything if you can't win in the post season. Or at the very least it doesn't mean a much. And to prove that, ask ANYONE would they rather go undefeated 17-0 in the regular season but lose the first game of the playoffs or go 9-8, get in as the last place Wildcard and then end up winning the Super Bowl.

This is an exceedingly simple concept but maybe we just differ philosophically on this. My opinion is that winners win. They win often and in the biggest moments and it's no surprise that when the chips are down, they are clutch; while losers lose often, especially in the big moments, and make excuses, and look for participation trophies, and it's no surprise how they manage to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.

Between those two scenarios, we are the latter but I hope to see us become the former.

Okay, I think I understand now, it's the old Ricky Bobby "if you're not first, your LAST son" theory:

Saints under Payton/Brees--one Super Bowl win, rest of the time nothing: LOSERS
Mike Tomlin--18 winning straight winning seasons, but just one Super Bowl win? LOSER
Aaron Rodgers--one Super Bowl win? Gimme a break: LOSER
Dan Marino--NO Super Bowl wins?? BIG LOSER
Reggie Wayne/Marvin Harrison--what did they ever do without Peyton Manning? LOSERS
Peyton Manning--what did he ever do without Wayne & Harrison? LOSER
Andy Reid--how many Super Bowls has he won without Mahomes? BIG FAT LOSER
Bill Belichick--how many Super Bowls did he win without Brady? LOSER
Tom Brady--only won Super Bowl after he left the Patriots? LOOOOOSER
Every team/player/coach in the league this season until one of them hoists the Lombardi: THEY'RE ALL LOSERS!!!
The team that wins this year if they don't win next year: BACK TO BEING LOSERS

Sound logic

 

[Bill]

Most NFL cities are cold, hard, and extremely business-like in their approach to everything. New Orleans is the anti-city. It's called the Big Easy because it truly is like Delta House in its approach to life. The community looks for any excuse to have fun and enjoy life. While there are lots of things around here that should be taken much more seriously, the consensus of the majority is to throw caution to the wind and 'let the good times roll'.

That's the culture, and it's contagious even to the young, highly paid athletes who are brought here to compete on the big stages of multi-million dollar sports arenas. Whereas when such professional players are brought in to the other cities around the league, the aura is quite different. You're there to do a job. You don't get the same adoption into the culture as what happens to those who sign here and then are required to become one with this city and its lifestyle.

Signing with a New Orleans team brings with it a diversion that is different than in cities that have a culture of excellence within their professional franchises. You know what's expected when you are brought in and you live that attitude or you are quickly sent packing. I'm convinced that if you were to take the top football or basketball franchises in the NFL & NBA and do a direct swap of every individual within those organizations, but still use our traditional city uniform... we would win games just like those great teams are doing now.

However, if you forced those folks to move here and live here for just one season, they would become the exact same teams that we currently have. The pressure to be great and to maintain the highest standards of excellence would quickly fade and the players would adopt the same attitude of the community around them.

That said, those winning cultures started somewhere. While the right culture produces victories, victories can also produce a winning culture. But it must be maintained, and not be allowed to slide back into the casual idea that winning will always be a part of the culture.

The Saints turned loose of their winning culture when they rode Drew Brees about two seasons too long without addressing his successor. The attitude of everyone from top to bottom was that the Saints had turned the corner with the Sean Payton era and that it would just naturally continue that way forever; with or without Sean at the helm. Now we know that a great running vehicle requires a lot of regularly scheduled maintenance. While we did some oil changes, we overlooked the cracked belts and bald tires. Who knew that you had to change the filter in the transmission as well?

We now need a highly skilled, certified mechanic to get us back to running on all cylinders. When the call is made to fill the seats of Darren Rizzi & Willie Green, we can only hope that their replacements will never get too comfortable in this city's losing culture. Because the only 'good times' that fans will have in the Dome or the Blender will be if our teams are contending for titles. And that's not normally what we do around here.

 

[SaintsFanInLA]

Okay, I think I understand now, it's the old Ricky Bobby "if you're not first, your LAST son" theory:

Saints under Payton/Brees--one Super Bowl win, rest of the time nothing: LOSERS
Mike Tomlin--18 winning straight winning seasons, but just one Super Bowl win? LOSER
Aaron Rodgers--one Super Bowl win? Gimme a break: LOSER
Dan Marino--NO Super Bowl wins?? BIG LOSER
Reggie Wayne/Marvin Harrison--what did they ever do without Peyton Manning? LOSERS
Peyton Manning--what did he ever do without Wayne & Harrison? LOSER
Andy Reid--how many Super Bowls has he won without Mahomes? BIG FAT LOSER
Bill Belichick--how many Super Bowls did he win without Brady? LOSER
Tom Brady--only won Super Bowl after he left the Patriots? LOOOOOSER
Every team/player/coach in the league this season until one of them hoists the Lombardi: THEY'RE ALL LOSERS!!!
The team that wins this year if they don't win next year: BACK TO BEING LOSERS

Sound logic

Sounds like your feelings are hurt or maybe not, I'm open to your input but the Saints are losers if we're going by the definition of the word, and not by anyone feelings.

Over their 57 seasons in the NFL, the Saints have accumulated a record of 412 wins, 468 losses, and 5 ties, which is the tenth-worst all-time regular season record among active franchises. They have also made the playoffs fourteen times and have the eighth-worst playoff record with 10 wins and 13 losses.

They LITERALLY have a losing regular season AND post season record.


"You can argue with me but you can't argue with math. Two half nuthins is a whole nuthin!"

 

[St. Widge]

The Saints are not yet in a rebuild. See Kamara extension.

The fans do not deserved to be shamed by you. That's ridiculous. That's what Loomis does.

Every year Mickey builds a team for that year, not for the future. It's the financial environment he created. He drafts fewer players every year because he thinks his roster and depth and coach are solid, when they are bottom of the league now. He keeps aging vets because they are his friends. Dennis Allen is his friend. Drafting less players also means less maturing contracts in the future.

You think he's in a rebuild, I say he lost control of his MO, balancing future dead caps against talent acquisition. He lost control, lies about it, and now we are looking at rebuilding with way too much of our cap UNAVAILABLE for the next 3 years!

This is grounds for termination (forced retirement) for any sane owner or upper manager out there.

Grounds for forced termination also would be:

4 non-playoff seasons in a row

Losing potential 2nd contract talent, starters, to other teams for practically nothing in return - because the Saints have no compelling QB that is attractive to play along with.

Never drafting a replacement for Drew. If Payton really wanted Mahomes, he would've been ready not to be jumped. And they passed over Lamar Jackson for Marcus Davenport.

Lastly, insulting the fans by saying maybe DA is Chuck Noll and other HoF coaches, only 11 months later having the owner shove Loomis in the closet and fire DA herself.

Where I take some comfort is knowing that the fans in the city are more where I am, far more than where the "oh Mickey's not so bad, it's not his fault" posters here.

Everyone's eyes are on Loomis a week from today to learn Rizzi's fate. But my eyes are on Gayle Benson, to see if she keeps sticking with this dinosaur loser GM and his crippling addictions.

A rebuild doesn't require you to get rid of all of your players and start from scratch. Teams are no more likely to succeed by getting rid of everyone before rebuilding over than keeping some players and rebuilding. It's been done successfully both ways and usually takes much longer when you get rid of everyone and start from scratch. Frankly the entire concept of a "rebuild" is just bullshirt talk used by teams to try to stop fans from expecting them to win games. All NFL teams are trying to build a winning roster every year. Some do it and some don't. Calling it rebuilding is just an excuse for sucking.

But thanks for another rant about Loomis when I didn't mention Loomis and I would personally prefer it if he was no longer the GM. But, please don't let that stop you.

 

[texasjefe]

when I didn't mention Loomis and I would personally prefer it if he was no longer the GM.

Why would you prefer him not be the GM?

 

[St. Widge]

Why would you prefer him not be the GM?

For some of the reasons you already discussed. He trades up too often, doesn't value draft picks enough, signs older players to deals with void years that lock you into those players past when you might want to let them go, and drafts have been mediocre.

Maybe he can turn those things around, but my preference would be to have a new GM with talent evaluation skills and a fresh perspective on things. Plus, Loomis is 68. Most people that age are usually pretty set in their ways and it's difficult for them to accept new ideas and new ways to do things.

I just don't feel the need to call Loomis a loser and list all the reasons he sucks in every post I make.

Edit: Oh and I think he started this rebuild about 3 years too late, kept DA 1 1/2 years too long, should not have signed Carr, and is now moving a bit too slow in the rebuild. But, at least he traded Lattimore and showed some restraint in free agency for the last few years outside of singing Carr.

 

[Fiyo]

Doctors don't cause hamstring injuries. If anything, they are caused by training staffs, health and nutrition staffs, and how the coach sets practices. None of them have anything to do with Ochsner.

Ochsn

Doctors don't cause hamstring injuries. If anything, they are caused by training staffs, health and nutrition staffs, and how the coach sets practices. None of them have anything to do with Ochsner

Sorry my man, but it has EVERYTHING to do with Ochsner … The Ochsner Andrews Sports Medicine Institute also provides care to the Saints and other athletes (the Pelicans). The institute's team includes sports medicine physicians, ATHLETIC TAINERS, physical therapists, and orthopedic surgeons. Nutrition, too. The office is part of the Saints facility on Airline Drive. … Argue all you want … look at both the Saints and the Pelicans, and if you can’t see an obvious common denominator, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[BigDSaintsFan]

Since this thread is about the organization, the Saints hired Randy Mueller and Dave Ziegler earlier this year. If Loomis is moved out of the GM position, is it possible one of these gentlemen get the position?

 

[St. Widge]

Ochsn

Sorry my man, but it has EVERYTHING to do with Ochsner … The Ochsner Andrews Sports Medicine Institute also provides care to the Saints and other athletes (the Pelicans). The institute's team includes sports medicine physicians, ATHLETIC TAINERS, physical therapists, and orthopedic surgeons. Nutrition, too. The office is part of the Saints facility on Airline Drive. … Argue all you want … look at both the Saints and the Pelicans, and if you can’t see an obvious common denominator, I don’t know what to tell you.

Care yes. But soft tissue injuries are about prevention and that falls on the training and health and fitness staff. Players don't even always have surgeries at Ochsner and often go to specialists around the country.

These guys don't go to Ochsner for training or PT. The Saints, and Pelicans for that matter, have their own training staff and health and fitness staff.

The PTs at Ochsner do PT for the public, not Saints or Pelicans players.

 

[Blazing Saint]

Sounds like your feelings are hurt or maybe not, I'm open to your input but the Saints are losers if we're going by the definition of the word, and not by anyone feelings.

Over their 57 seasons in the NFL, the Saints have accumulated a record of 412 wins, 468 losses, and 5 ties, which is the tenth-worst all-time regular season record among active franchises. They have also made the playoffs fourteen times and have the eighth-worst playoff record with 10 wins and 13 losses.

They LITERALLY have a losing regular season AND post season record.


"You can argue with me but you can't argue with math. Two half nuthins is a whole nuthin!"

Now, let's say we win that game against the Rams, 11-12. We go to the SB in Atlanta & beat Brady? Tied playoff record.

 

[Saint Jack]

Is it your opinion that there can ONLY be one loser franchise? I've never said the Saints were the ONLY losing franchise, just that we are one. And one can most CERTAINLY make the argument that the Saints have a Top 5 argument for ignominious moments in the league. There is more than ONE winning franchise, like: the Steelers, 49ers, Patriots, Chiefs, and despite the board's hatred of them, the Cowboys. And while they have had 30 years of recent misery, they still have what, 5 Lombardis.

I understand it. We had one glorious moment in the sun, literally almost every thing else (aside from individual accolades) was disappointment in some form or fashion when it came to winning in big moments when it counted. And YES, Dan Campbell is a loser until he wins it all. The NFL isn't a participation trophy praising league. The Lamar Hunt and George Halas Trophies are nice to have but history only really cares about the Lombardi.

Winning in the regular season is nice but it doesn't mean anything if you can't win in the post season. Or at the very least it doesn't mean a much. And to prove that, ask ANYONE would they rather go undefeated 17-0 in the regular season but lose the first game of the playoffs or go 9-8, get in as the last place Wildcard and then end up winning the Super Bowl.

This is an exceedingly simple concept but maybe we just differ philosophically on this. My opinion is that winners win. They win often and in the biggest moments and it's no surprise that when the chips are down, they are clutch; while losers lose often, especially in the big moments, and make excuses, and look for participation trophies, and it's no surprise how they manage to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.

Between those two scenarios, we are the latter but I hope to see us become the former.

But to go one and act like this is the 70s is contradicting.
The Saints are just a franchise that’s going through the motions after a long sustained run.

And if you wanna get technical.
We have the same number of Super Bowls as the Eagles.
In the last 40 years, the Steelers only have two.
The Packers only have two Super Bowls since the 70s.
For all the success the Vikings have had dating back to Bud Grant, they have no Super Bowls.

 

[Blazing Saint]

But to go one and act like this is the 70s is contradicting.
The Saints are just a franchise that’s going through the motions after a long sustained run.

And if you wanna get technical.
We have the same number of Super Bowls as the Eagles.
In the last 40 years, the Steelers only have two.
The Packers only have two Super Bowls since the 70s.
For all the success the Vikings have had dating back to Bud Grant, they have no Super Bowls.

Let's see if the Vikings, Lions, or Bills break the curse this season.

 

[slikk]

New England has maintained a winning culture? They haven't been in the playoffs since 2021 and their record over the past 4 years is very similar to ours. They are experiencing the same thing we are. They are trying to move on after their HoF QB retired/left.

And KC is winning because they have a great franchise QB that will no doubt be in the HoF.

What has happened is our fans have lost the stomach to deal with a rebuild. The truth is that we are in a rebuild and our fans are already losing their sheet over a 5 win season with a huge number of injuries. If they really tore it all down our fans wouldn't be able to deal with it. We were spoiled by Drew Brees and Sean Payton and have forgotten what it's like without a HoF QB and HoF head coach. It's going to take some patience until we can find a franchise QB and a good to great head coach.

New England before Brady left they wasn't afraid to let go of aging or under preforming players. Saints our fans fall in love with players and the idea of trading and letting go of players until it's to late most of the time. If they tried to trade bress y'all would have tore up the city lol just saying. Yall let a gm, coach and quarterback hold the organization hostage. Yall made the feel like God's off of 1 Superbowl