Triplett says Saints Interest in Chris "Beanie" Wells is "Bona Fide" (2 Viewers)

[SaintsFan7]

Winning increases running success. If the Saints are down 10 points in the third quarter then Wells will not be on the field.

How was the front seven a strength when we allowed 118 YPG rushing and got 28 sacks?

You cannot run the clock out if you do not have a lead. We allowed 84 points in the second quarter this year. How will Wells help the defense allow fewer points in the second quarter?

Football is a complex science my friend stats alone won't tell you the entire story. A fast car is great in a Nascar race but when you need to put miles on a car and handle the day to day task of life your not gonna drive the number 3. ( at least the number 3 Dale drove) You need something solid, something dependable you want to feel secure.

Your running game sets the foundation of a secure offense. No one cares that the Saints are sexy or a fast car . All you need to be able to do is out last them. Payton knows the Defense is weak he is the head coach and a " Offensive Guru" he has known that since he has been here. What he had in 06 was balance that Defense was not great that year, his play calling however protected that. Great coaches understand their teams weakness. Why keep a bad defense on the field, sending them out mulitiple possessions and countinue to hope that your offense can play perfect football. That is a unrealistic expectation. Compound the problem with bad special teams play and you have what we have had here the last 2 seasons an avg team.

No one has a perfect team anymore,no one has a GREAT Defense and a GREAT Offense. You must manage your pieces effectively to create a perfect balance. Those teams that do, win Superbowls in this era. We all would love 11 probowl players on Defense and 11 on Offense but reality tells us, it is not going to happen.

You better be able to run the ball on 3rd and 1 and not be looking for GO GO Gadget plays. That to me defines the Number 1 Offense. Too many times last year we saw the sexy car, in got to have it situations not start. I believe our coach has turned the corner he wants to win and this team will be balanced in 09.

 

[REALCHRISM]

Winning increases running success. If the Saints are down 10 points in the third quarter then Wells will not be on the field.

How was the front seven a strength when we allowed 118 YPG rushing and got 28 sacks?

You cannot run the clock out if you do not have a lead. We allowed 84 points in the second quarter this year. How will Wells help the defense allow fewer points in the second quarter?

If you are giving up say 118 YPG rushing and bring your passing yards allowed to, say, what Tampa Bay gave up last year (187.2) since your pass defense was your achilles heel, you are ranked in the top 10 in defense. Tampa was ninth even though they gave up the same amount of yards on the ground. Again, our front seven can stand to get better but those guys were not the reason why we did not have a good defense. Yes, we need more pressure. But I think having a healthy Smith and Grant back playing in a more aggressive defense by Gregg Williams will also benefit us. Ellis will be in his second season and should show vast improvement with a year under his belt. Dallas ranked #8 on defense and #12 in rushing defense. The difference between their rushing defense and ours came down to a little over 11 yards a game. I do not see why our defense cannot improve upon its ability to stop the run. We did it well last season early on but injuries took their toll.

Listen, I have offered a number of arguments on why the Wells pick makes sense for the Saints from their trajectory. At the end of the day, you can argue it if you like. That's perfectly fine. It won't change what the Saints plan to do. If they feel that Wells is the guy that can best help the team, that's who they will choose. If not, they won't. But if they do, and there's a good chance they might, it will be up to you to choose whether or not you are willing to support them. BUT YOU CAN ARGUE UNTIL YOU ARE BLUE IN THE FACE TRYING TO CONVINCE ME THAT WELLS SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AND IT WON'T MATTER MUCH IF THE TEAM TAKES HIM. All of your contentions won't stop Mickey Loomis and Sean Payton from doing what they want to do, and if that's take Wells, you will have to learn to live with it even if you do not like it.

we ran deuce twice on that drive, 1 run was a 3 yard run on first and 20 and the 2nd was a 5 yard run on 3rd and 5. Nobody wants to run the ball more than I do but lets not re-invent history to make a case to draft beanie wells.

diat, it's not a reinvention. The drive started with 8.26 left on the clock. They started off passing on the drive. Nevertheless, 5 of the last 10 plays before the two minute warning were running plays. The other five were dink and donk plays that allowed for ball control and prevented the Eagles from keying in just to stop the run. The versatility of having two runners like Reggie and Deuce, along with the ability of Sean Payton to mix things up, prevented the Eagles from finding a way to stop us in that final sequence of the game. Without such versatility, you are left to rely solely on the pass, which is not always going to be the right recipe for success. I would imagine that had we been able to run the ball against Tampa in that last game, we come out the victors and not on the losing end. I do think Payton should have involved Pierre more in that game but for whatever reason he did not. Still, the point remains. When you have a runner like Wells, it opens things up for your offense just as it does when Reggie is on the field. When we had Deuce, the threat of his running forced teams to play us more honestly. At the same time, having the ability to throw the ball downfield and incorporate Reggie into both the running and passing game kept defenses from solely responding to the run.

 

[saintmike23]

Football is a complex science my friend stats alone won't tell you the entire story. A fast car is great in a Nascar race but when you need to put miles on a car and handle the day to day task of life your not gonna drive the number 3. ( at least the number 3 Dale drove) You need something solid, something dependable you want to feel secure.

Your running game sets the foundation of a secure offense. No one cares that the Saints are sexy or a fast car . All you need to be able to do is out last them. Payton knows the Defense is weak he is the head coach and a " Offensive Guru" he has known that since he has been here. What he had in 06 was balance that Defense was not great that year, his play calling however protected that. Great coaches understand their teams weakness. Why keep a bad defense on the field, sending them out mulitiple possessions and countinue to hope that your offense can play perfect football. That is unrealistic. Compound the problem with bad special teams play and you have what we have had here the last 2 seasons an avg team.

No one has a perfect team anymore,no one has a GREAT Defense and a GREAT Offense. You must manage your pieces effectively to create a perfect balance. Those teams that do, win Superbowls in this era. We all would love 11 probowl players on Defense and 11 on Offense but reality tells us, it is not going to happen.

You better be able to run the ball on 3rd and 1 and not be looking for GO GO Gadget plays. That to me defines the Number 1 Offense. Too many times last year we saw the sexy car, in got to have it situations not start. I believe our coach has turned the corner he wants to win and this team will be balanced in 09.

Yes I understand that football game strategy is complex but the simple fact is that a good defense will improve the running game more than a good running game will improve the defense.
Look at this

When we see two things that appear correlated, it is natural for us to say that one causes the other. The runs come during the game, and the win comes at its conclusion. Therefore most fans and analysts assume the running causes the winning. The problem is, it usually doesn't. It's the winning that causes the running. Teams that are ahead, and likely to win, run the ball to take time off the clock and to minimize the risk of a turnover. Teams that are behind, and likely to lose, abandon the run in favor of the pass. Statistics can measure the correlation, but it can't determine the direction of causation.

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/07/what-makes-teams-win-part-1.html

Running backs are most useful when their football team has a lead and they can run and use the clock. A team that runs a lot in the first half to establish the run will not be successful in the NFL. Here is a good article that busts the establish-the-run myth.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/michael_lombardi/05/14/nfl.myths/index.html

Also, running success is one of the lowest factors when it comes to winning. Passing success is actually more important.

So we should focus more on our Pass Defense. I will concede that more rushing attempts means fewer pass attempts and that will increase the chances of winning slightly. But that does not warrant choosing a RB in the first round. Just run 5 more times a game.

 

[saintmike23]

If you are giving up say 118 YPG rushing and bring your passing yards allowed to, say, what Tampa Bay gave up last year (187.2) since your pass defense was your achilles heel, you are ranked in the top 10 in defense. Tampa was ninth even though they gave up the same amount of yards on the ground. Again, our front seven can stand to get better but those guys were not the reason why we did not have a good defense. Yes, we need more pressure. But I think having a healthy Smith and Grant back playing in a more aggressive defense by Gregg Williams will also benefit us. Ellis will be in his second season and should show vast improvement with a year under his belt. Dallas ranked #8 on defense and #12 in rushing defense. The difference between their rushing defense and ours came down to a little over 11 yards a game. I do not see why our defense cannot improve upon its ability to stop the run. We did it well last season early on but injuries took their toll.

Listen, I have offered a number of arguments on why the Wells pick makes sense for the Saints from their trajectory. At the end of the day, you can argue it if you like. That's perfectly fine. It won't change what the Saints plan to do. If they feel that Wells is the guy that can best help the team, that's who they will choose. If not, they won't. But if they do, and there's a good chance they might, it will be up to you to choose whether or not you are willing to support them. BUT YOU CAN ARGUE UNTIL YOU ARE BLUE IN THE FACE TRYING TO CONVINCE ME THAT WELLS SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AND IT WON'T MATTER MUCH IF THE TEAM TAKES HIM. All of your contentions won't stop Mickey Loomis and Sean Payton from doing what they want to do, and if that's take Wells, you will have to learn to live with it even if you do not like it.

You did not address the question. How will Beanie Wells help the defense give up fewer points in the second quarter?

Can we improve our time of possession by 1 to 2 minutes by running Wells? Do we not panic if a teams goes up on us in the second quarter and run him anyway because he is such a gamer?

You said yourself that Wells will improve the defense. I just want to know if he can keep the points down.

 

[Soundwave]

We have a hard enough time using the 2 backs we have correctly, are we gonna automatically get it right if we have 3.

 

[REALCHRISM]

You did not address the question. How will Beanie Wells help the defense give up fewer points in the second quarter?

Can we improve our time of possession by 1 to 2 minutes by running Wells? Do we not panic if a teams goes up on us in the second quarter and run him anyway because he is such a gamer?

You said yourself that Wells will improve the defense. I just want to know if he can keep the points down.

I did not address the question because I have done so time and time again SINCE JANUARY when I first mentioned the possibility. At this point, there is nothing left to be said. Not trying to be rude or anything but you can perform a search. To me, the Wells debate is old and tiring. I think both sides have funded their contentions to fullest point of exhaustion. We get these threads each day and at some point, all you're really getting is a rehash of the same arguments we have seen the past few months.

The Saints will either take Wells or they won't, bottom line. The fact that he's a consideration at this point says that they do not fully agree with the arguments being made by those who do not want to see Wells chosen. Even if you want to see defense, you have to open yourself up to the possibility that it could be Wells. That has been my central thesis. While I am a draft Wells if Jenkins is not there advocate, I do recognize that they could just as easily opt for a DE. However, if they pick Wells, then the anti-Wells crowd will have to live with it. If they pick defense, I would imagine that most of the individuals on the Wells bandwagon will live with it because most proponents of drafting Wells are not anti-defense the way that the majority of the draft defense-only adherents are anti-Wells.

 

[SaintsFan7]

Yes I understand that football game strategy is complex but the simple fact is that a good defense will improve the running game more than a good running game will improve the defense.
Look at this


Running backs are most useful when their football team has a lead and they can run and use the clock. A team that runs a lot in the first half to establish the run will not be successful in the NFL. Here is a good article that busts the establish-the-run myth.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/michael_lombardi/05/14/nfl.myths/index.html

Also, running success is one of the lowest factors when it comes to winning. Passing success is actually more important.

So we should focus more on our Pass Defense. I will concede that more rushing attempts means fewer pass attempts and that will increase the chances of winning slightly. But that does not warrant choosing a RB in the first round. Just run 5 more times a game.

Entirely depends on how the Saints grade the players available at #14. If the orgaization feels Wells will be a better player than anyone they could pick on defense, I would consider that a good move. They should not out think themselves or reach. "All things work together for the greater good.' if you cannot pass the ball 8 man fronts almost deny you the opportunity to run the ball effectively.

So i understand the connection between throwing and running the ball. However teams that can run the ball effectively in most cases can do on offense anything and i mean anything they want to do to you. It makes things so easy.

That in turn helps the defense. (clock managment, rest, situational circumstances)

Now when you factor in a better game day signal caller in Williams and some depth additions, things could turn around fast.

 

[saints2k8]

Man the 1st round debate has started to get sickening. Lets just chill and see what the Saints pick..I'm sure we are all tired of the back and forth take this guy or don't take this guy argument.

 

[Danchrism]

I did not address the question because I have done so time and time again SINCE JANUARY when I first mentioned the possibility. At this point, there is nothing left to be said. Not trying to be rude or anything but you can perform a search. To me, the Wells debate is old and tiring. I think both sides have funded their contentions to fullest point of exhaustion. We get these threads each day and at some point, all you're really getting is a rehash of the same arguments we have seen the past few months.

You're absolutely right. The ebb and flow goes like this:

for: we should draft Beanie because [reason A]
against: [reason A] is founded on questionable logic.
for: [offers no counter, moves to reason B]
against: Let's look at [reason B] in depth.
for: [offers no counter except for a highlight video] maybe this will change your mind
(someone who has not participated in the debate): after watching that, let's draft him! yes! please!
against: Dude, really? A highlight video? Haven't we discussed 50 million times why you can't fairly judge a player based on a highlight video??!?!
for: you just don't want him, that's all.
against: I'd be for him if our offense wasn't already potent. most of its problems are fixable from within. I just don't think this is the year to burn our only day 1 pick on offense.
for: beanie's a bruiser!
against: no, he's just big. he actually runs like a small back.
for: stiffarm! 235 pounds! 4.3 40!
against: he still runs like a smaller back. even OSU fans say as much. And he actually ran near a 4.4.
for: but he's 235 pounds. he can come in on third-and-1 and get the first.
against: that's not a 100% guarantee; he's a 235-pound guy who runs soft!!!
(then all the side discussions take place...)

 

[Deuuuuce]

Entirely depends on how the Saints grade the players available at #14. If the orgaization feels Wells will be a better player than anyone they could pick on defense, I would consider that a good move. They should not out think themselves or reach. "All things work together for the greater good.' if you cannot pass the ball 8 man fronts almost deny you the opportunity to run the ball effectively.

So i understand the connection between throwing and passing the ball. However teams that can run the ball effectively in most cases can do on offense anything and i mean anything they want to do to you. It makes things so easy.

That in turn helps the defense. (clock managment, rest, situational circumstances)

Now when you factor in a better game day signal caller in Williams and some depth additions, things could turn around fast.

I look at the situation this way.

We have the most productive offense in the entire league. Is it because we have a good rushing attack? No. It's mainly because of Drew Brees and a nice mix of skill position players. Why draft a guy at number 14 when we don't even have a need for him. Bush and Thomas have the skills to get the job done on that side of the ball.

Defenses in the NFL these days are desigend to do two things.

A. Stop the run
B. Pressure the QB

The way to counter defenses is by having a QB who makes quick decisions, building an offensive line that can block, and having skill position players on the field who can catch and beat their man when in one on one situations.

The days of having a dominant running game are over in the NFL as most quality teams in the league can stop the run if they know its coming. You have got to be able to throw the ball and make big plays. We have that ability already. No need to invest a first round pick in a workhorse RB when our offense is designed to spread the ball around. We need playmakers on D. We need passrushers and guys in the secondary who can intercept passes.

 

[BleedBlackNGold]

You're absolutely right. The ebb and flow goes like this:

for: we should draft Beanie because [reason A]
against: [reason A] is founded on questionable logic.
for: [offers no counter, moves to reason B]
against: Let's look at [reason B] in depth.
for: [offers no counter except for a highlight video] maybe this will change your mind
(someone who has not participated in the debate): after watching that, let's draft him! yes! please!
against: Dude, really? A highlight video? Haven't we discussed 50 million times why you can't fairly judge a player based on a highlight video??!?!
for: you just don't want him, that's all.
against: I'd be for him if our offense wasn't already potent. most of its problems are fixable from within. I just don't think this is the year to burn our only day 1 pick on offense.
for: beanie's a bruiser!
against: no, he's just big. he actually runs like a small back.
for: stiffarm! 235 pounds! 4.3 40!
against: he still runs like a smaller back. even OSU fans say as much. And he actually ran near a 4.4.
for: but he's 235 pounds. he can come in on third-and-1 and get the first.
against: that's not a 100% guarantee; he's a 235-pound guy who runs soft!!!
(then all the side discussions take place...)

This man gets it +1

 

[Rickysmyhero]

the argument can definitly be made that he is injury prone....but the notion that he is "soft" is completely unjustified....after all....he was rested by his coach during "meaningless" games so that he could be healthy for the remainder of the season...in fact he came back while he was still nursing his injury and PLAYED the majority of his college career with injuries

he is definitly injury prone...but he is most definitly not soft

Well, I haven't watched him enough personally to opine for sure, but what I do know is alot of the OSU fans on the rivals site think he is soft and should have been able to play in some of their big games he missed with the injuries he had.

I know he looked dang good in NC game in the dome against LSU. Alot of players on that Tiger D, except Harry Coleman, who blew him up, appeared to be hesistant about coming up and hitting him in the teeth.

 

[diat150]

diat, it's not a reinvention. The drive started with 8.26 left on the clock. They started off passing on the drive. Nevertheless, 5 of the last 10 plays before the two minute warning were running plays. The other five were dink and donk plays that allowed for ball control and prevented the Eagles from keying in just to stop the run. The versatility of having two runners like Reggie and Deuce, along with the ability of Sean Payton to mix things up, prevented the Eagles from finding a way to stop us in that final sequence of the game. Without such versatility, you are left to rely solely on the pass, which is not always going to be the right recipe for success. I would imagine that had we been able to run the ball against Tampa in that last game, we come out the victors and not on the losing end. I do think Payton should have involved Pierre more in that game but for whatever reason he did not. Still, the point remains. When you have a runner like Wells, it opens things up for your offense just as it does when Reggie is on the field. When we had Deuce, the threat of his running forced teams to play us more honestly. At the same time, having the ability to throw the ball downfield and incorporate Reggie into both the running and passing game kept defenses from solely responding to the run.

no, it is a reinvention. you said that we ran out the clock rushing deuce, let me show you again:

LIKE THE EAGLES DID NOT DO IN THE LAST 9 MINUTES BACK IN 2006 BECAUSE WE RAN DEUCE UNTIL THE CLOCK RAN OUT

just admit you made a mistake.

what I find funny is that you mention how we were able to drive down the field due to the versatility of deuce and reggie, but yet want to draft a one dimensional player to replace the "deuce" in our offense instead of using the multi dimensional thomas that has shown nothing but upside and versatility in this offense. it just doesnt compute.

 

[REALCHRISM]

You're absolutely right. The ebb and flow goes like this:

for: we should draft Beanie because [reason A]
against: [reason A] is founded on questionable logic.
for: [offers no counter, moves to reason B]
against: Let's look at [reason B] in depth.
for: [offers no counter except for a highlight video] maybe this will change your mind
(someone who has not participated in the debate): after watching that, let's draft him! yes! please!
against: Dude, really? A highlight video? Haven't we discussed 50 million times why you can't fairly judge a player based on a highlight video??!?!
for: you just don't want him, that's all.
against: I'd be for him if our offense wasn't already potent. most of its problems are fixable from within. I just don't think this is the year to burn our only day 1 pick on offense.
for: beanie's a bruiser!
against: no, he's just big. he actually runs like a small back.
for: stiffarm! 235 pounds! 4.3 40!
against: he still runs like a smaller back. even OSU fans say as much. And he actually ran near a 4.4.
for: but he's 235 pounds. he can come in on third-and-1 and get the first.
against: that's not a 100% guarantee; he's a 235-pound guy who runs soft!!!
(then all the side discussions take place...)

Yes, I am quite sure that's exactly what I have done the last few months--offer faulty logic that is only faulty in the mind of those who are against the choice of Wells and then buttress those arguments with highlight videos of Chris Wells. In fact, I have not written any single logical argument in defense of drafting Wells; instead, I use videos to explain why he would be a great pick if the team chose to go in that direction. As a matter of fact, I am looking for a new video right now just to continue to make the case for Wells. By the way, Danchrism, your insight is so deeply appreciated. I always look for your posts because I know that I will be left in awe of your sound football acumen; you, my friend, truly get it. I am quite sure it is your deepening insight that made you such an exceptional student at Morehouse. Oh, I might want to tread lightly since you're a moderator NOW. :1zhelp:

 

[ScottRay504]

If we can't find a way to run the ball consistently (more consistently then we do currently at least),
Brees will eventually get injured. The law of averages will eventually be at work.
He's a small QB to begin with, I think having a big brute RB is going to be key for a long healthy career with Drew.