Ukraine (30 Viewers)

[SoggyBottomBoy]

Happened to me today. I was going back and forth about certain topics with a friend of mine that is total MAGA. We exchanged a bunch of messages and I conceded a point......maybe you guys will see a different perspective like I did. The United States screwed up in the past. Take the current mess out of it for a minute.....

After the fall of the Soviet Union, America had decent relations with Russia. They were struggling as a democratic nation and we didn't do much to help. Putin comes in, 9/11 happens (to us) and Russia is on our side. Russia is not the threat it was during the Cold War, yet several Presidents expand NATO. George W put the nail in the coffin in 2004 bringing in 7 or 8 nations right on Russia's borders. That's when Russia turned sour again. That's when they became the enemy again. Why did we expand into their "comfort zone"? We held the economic and military advantage at the time, so we could do it. But why do it? Why threaten Russia when they were not the same type of threat like during the Cold War? So as an independent thinker, it makes you wonder if WE didn't help create what is happening now. I can assure you the United States would not allow Mexico or Canada to form an alliance with Russia. If you look at the whole thing through that lens, it makes you think. While I do not condone Russia's actions and they are the clear aggressors in this conflict, you wonder if things could have been different if WE handled things differently.

It's always good to keep and open mind. Looking at things from another perspective is also good practice. Things are rarely black and white. Just shades of grey.

Appreciate the post and agree about having an open mind and especially listening. Per the perspective you introduced, it takes a tone of “we brought that on ourselves or that we’re responsible.” Or that Russia/Putin would have just played nice if NATO hadn’t expanded. All indications point more towards Russia trying to gobble up those countries.

And I’m far from those that think we, the U.S., are squeaky clean. More like, Russia is that despicable. McCain and Biden have been warning everyone for years about Russia/Putin. They were right.

 

[HoustonSaint68]

Just a quick editorial note: these last few posts are good examples of what we want to allow on this thread and the Middle East thread.

Keep it about policy; don't bring in the political parties specifically; don't directly insult or ridicule other posters or their posts; don't indirectly insult or ridicule other posters or their posts through sarcasm, cute word play, ganging up or otherwise -- then we can continue these discussions here.

In other words, let's all civilly pretend that we're in classroom of strangers and that the person each of us respect most in this world (or the next) is watching how we treat one another. I particularly welcome Bayouboy's post and his viewpoint alternate to the going theme on this thread. I disagree with it, but I welcome it.

Perhaps we can start our own little revolution here by discoursing and disagreeing with one another as fellow citizens instead of partisan rivals.

 

[baarbogast]

I've largely stayed out of this and the Israel thread out of frustration, I was concerned I may get banned or have the secret service pay a visit, Quite possibly both.

 

[DaveXA]

I've largely stayed out of this and the Israel thread out of frustration, I was concerned I may get banned or have the secret service pay a visit, Quite possibly both.

You're nowhere near getting banned. I think you've been helpful in posting a lot of stuff I wouldn't ordinarily find on my own since I'm not really that plugged into the X and other not so mainstream news sources on social media.

I feel the frustration though. It's understandable. Also, not likely you'll hear from the Secret Service unless you make a direct threat. You're good.

 

[rail]

Selfishly, let it fly @baarbogast !

 

[Saintman2884]

I wish Zelensky had punched that smug SOB (JD Vance) right in the face!

That’s what is so frustrating about this. As phony and outlandish as these plays sound, they work. In fact, every time I’ve thought “okay, THIS stunt won’t go well for him” it does the opposite. He becomes more popular.

Appreciate the post and agree about having an open mind and especially listening. Per the perspective you introduced, it takes a tone of “we brought that on ourselves or that we’re responsible. That Russia/Putin would have just played nice if NATO hadn’t expanded. All indications point more towards Russia trying to gobble up those countries.

And I’m far from those that think we, the U.S., are squeaky clean. More like, Russia is that despicable. McCain and Biden have been warning everyone for years about Russia/Putin. They were right.

Wasnt just Biden or McCain, either, Mitt Romney also warned or advised that Russia was actually still one of our biggest geopoliitical rivals and enemies in the 2012 presidential debate and got laughed and ridiculed only for his warnings to be rehashed and reinterpreted several years later when policymakers on both sides came to realize his warnings werent a joke and they were hasty in condemning them.

Sadly, for the foreseeable future, even if Putin were to have a massive stroke and die tomorrow, Russia's relationship with West, NATO, E.U., U.S -without Trump/MAGA is never going to be cozy, great or stable. They've never gotten past that late 19th century " European imperialist" phase of their foreign policy, especially as it relates to Pan-Slavist, ultra-Orthodox "sphere of influence" they see as Russia's traditional.role as "protector" amongst fellow Baltic states, Serbia, Ukraine, or even Poland. They also have this "Third Rome" would-be socio-political, cultural world.power fantasy going on among some ultranationalist Russian groups. 20 years ago, U.S.-Russian relations were certainly far better then they are now, but I'd hardly say that many European and U.S. politicians, diplomats, or military leaders saw Putin as some stable, long-term geopoliitical presence, remember his invasion and atrocities in South Ossetia during the 2008 Summer Olympics.

The last time U.S. and Russia, ironically, had decent diplomatic relations was in the late 19th century and that was largely due to Czarist Russia seeing us an effective geopoliitical counterweight to British imperialism or expansion in Canada, Alaska. Russia and U.K. throughout the entire 19th century (from 1830-1907) were involved in a near-century diplomatic, military, and even cultural chess game called "The Great Game" which took place in Greece, Crimean War, Baku, Afghanistan, safety and security of British Raj in India, "Eastern Question"--the fate of remaining Ottoman territories in Balkans, Middle East, and North Africa, like Egypt and who would control them (French. British or the Russians), 1877-78 Russo-Turkish War, even a short-lived British military expedition to Tibet in 1903-04.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

FWIW Cenk Uygur who is a die-hard leftist thought the whole thing was triggered by Zelenskyy asking a quesiton to Vance which he thought was improper at meeting, because questions were supposed to come from reporters



He suspects Zelenskyy was PO'd because Trump/Vance wanted a mineral rights deal with no security guarantees. Basically for nothing except maybe continued arms shipments

And I think at this point Zelenskyy is just tired and wants to do away with pretenses as soon as possible so he knows where people stand, and wants that out in the open

This was a set up from the start.

They were trying to get Zelenskyy to do something to give them an excuse to cancel the trip, hence the dictator talk last week.

Cenk is a click whore at this point,

 

[Consigliere]

I really hope Congress stands up to Trump by passing a veto-proof budget that includes aid to Ukraine. But I'm not holding my breath.

This week the so-called "Christian" Speaker of the House prayed on the issue (again) and changed back to a pro-Putin position (again) so any kind of congressional action is quite out of the question.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

The Foundations of Geopolitics: The Geopolitical Future of Russia (Russian: Основы геополитики: геополитическое будущее России) is a geopolitical book by Aleksandr Dugin. Its publication in 1997 was well received in Russia; it has had significant influence within the Russian military, police forces, and foreign policy elites,[1][2] and has been used as a textbook in the Academy of the General Staff of the Russian military.[1][3] Powerful Russian political figures subsequently took an interest in Dugin,[4] a Russian political analyst who espouses an ultra-nationalist and neo-fascist ideology based on his idea of neo-Eurasianism,[5] who has developed a close relationship with Russia's Academy of the General Staff.[6]

Dugin credits General Nikolai Klokotov of the Academy of the General Staff as co-author and his main inspiration,[7] though Klokotov denies this.[3] Colonel General Leonid Ivashov, head of the International Department of the Russian Ministry of Defence, helped draft the book.[8]

Foundations of Geopolitics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Kremlin said on Sunday that the dramatic pivot in the foreign policy of the United States “largely coincides with its own vision..."

 

[saintmdterps]

I wish Zelensky had punched that smug SOB (JD Vance) right in the face!

One wonders how the current administration would handle it if the US were to be invaded? My guess is they would all go hide in a bunker somewhere (like Russia) and hope it blows over. This administration would NOT handle an incursion in the same manner as Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

 

[SystemShock]

Happened to me today. I was going back and forth about certain topics with a friend of mine that is total MAGA. We exchanged a bunch of messages and I conceded a point......maybe you guys will see a different perspective like I did. The United States screwed up in the past. Take the current mess out of it for a minute.....

After the fall of the Soviet Union, America had decent relations with Russia. They were struggling as a democratic nation and we didn't do much to help. Putin comes in, 9/11 happens (to us) and Russia is on our side. Russia is not the threat it was during the Cold War, yet several Presidents expand NATO. George W put the nail in the coffin in 2004 bringing in 7 or 8 nations right on Russia's borders. That's when Russia turned sour again. That's when they became the enemy again. Why did we expand into their "comfort zone"? We held the economic and military advantage at the time, so we could do it. But why do it? Why threaten Russia when they were not the same type of threat like during the Cold War? So as an independent thinker, it makes you wonder if WE didn't help create what is happening now. I can assure you the United States would not allow Mexico or Canada to form an alliance with Russia. If you look at the whole thing through that lens, it makes you think. While I do not condone Russia's actions and they are the clear aggressors in this conflict, you wonder if things could have been different if WE handled things differently.

It's always good to keep and open mind. Looking at things from another perspective is also good practice. Things are rarely black and white. Just shades of grey.

Besides an open mind, we need to keep an eye on facts.

What 7-8 nations joined NATO in 2004 that are right at Russia's border? I can only count 6 countries bordering Russia, and 2 of them are Belarus and Ukraine. The other 4 countries are Norway (member since 1949), Finland (joined in 2023 after Russia invaded Ukraine), plus Latvia and Estonia, who indeed joined in 2004. And remember why they joined NATO? Because they were afraid Russia wanted to reclaim them.

Russia and the U.S. were never in what you'd call a "good" or "decent" relation. You don't point hundreds of nuclear war heads at each other and have a "decent" relation, unless not being openly hostile is how "decent relation" is defined. After Russia lost the ability to keep up with the arms race, things still happened in the background, like espionage, proxy wars...

 

[faceman]

Appreciate the post and agree about having an open mind and especially listening. Per the perspective you introduced, it takes a tone of “we brought that on ourselves or that we’re responsible. That Russia/Putin would have just played nice if NATO hadn’t expanded. All indications point more towards Russia trying to gobble up those countries.

And I’m far from those that think we, the U.S., are squeaky clean. More like, Russia is that despicable. McCain and Biden have been warning everyone for years about Russia/Putin. They were right.

Patton knew a long time ago

 

[Bayouboy]

Besides an open mind, we need to keep an eye on facts.

What 7-8 nations joined NATO in 2004 that are right at Russia's border? I can only count 6 countries bordering Russia, and 2 of them are Belarus and Ukraine. The other 4 countries are Norway (member since 1949), Finland (joined in 2023 after Russia invaded Ukraine), plus Latvia and Estonia, who indeed joined in 2004. And remember why they joined NATO? Because they were afraid Russia wanted to reclaim them.

Russia and the U.S. were never in what you'd call a "good" or "decent" relation. You don't point hundreds of nuclear war heads at each other and have a "decent" relation, unless not being openly hostile is how "decent relation" is defined. After Russia lost the ability to keep up with the arms race, things still happened in the background, like espionage, proxy wars...

My facts were not 100% accurate, but the premise was. NATO moved in right on their borders. Many folks in Congress and around the world in Europe did not want to add these countries to NATO in fear of provoking Russia. As I referenced before, that's what killed the "decent" relations with Russia. I conceded we were never truly "friends", but the tension and threat of nuclear annelation was no where near Cold War levels. So there was a chance that the two countries could close the gap in international relations. Adding those countries to NATO in 2004 closed that door.

I'm no expert on the area in the early 2000, and neither are any of you. My position is the United States did not help relations by helping add those countries to NATO in 2004. I do not blame the US for failed diplomacy.....I understand who and what Russia is, but to pretend we did not have a hand in it all is naive and homerism. The US did it because we could and Russia was weak at the time. I just wonder if things happened differently if the world would be different today. Nobody knows that. Russia could have invaded the Baltic region if they don't get included into NATO.......or a more general peace could have happened between the US and Russia.

The United States as had a hand in so many things on the world stage since the end of WWII. Most are good and were well intentioned. Some are vile and we should be ashamed. I guess the batting average is pretty good, tho.

 

[efil4stnias]

My facts were not 100% accurate, but the premise was. NATO moved in right on their borders. Many folks in Congress and around the world in Europe did not want to add these countries to NATO in fear of provoking Russia. As I referenced before, that's what killed the "decent" relations with Russia. I conceded we were never truly "friends", but the tension and threat of nuclear annelation was no where near Cold War levels. So there was a chance that the two countries could close the gap in international relations. Adding those countries to NATO in 2004 closed that door.

I'm no expert on the area in the early 2000, and neither are any of you. My position is the United States did not help relations by helping add those countries to NATO in 2004. I do not blame the US for failed diplomacy.....I understand who and what Russia is, but to pretend we did not have a hand in it all is naive and homerism. The US did it because we could and Russia was weak at the time. I just wonder if things happened differently if the world would be different today. Nobody knows that. Russia could have invaded the Baltic region if they don't get included into NATO.......or a more general peace could have happened between the US and Russia.

The United States as had a hand in so many things on the world stage since the end of WWII. Most are good and were well intentioned. Some are vile and we should be ashamed. I guess the batting average is pretty good, tho.

This why it's so hard to have intelligent debate/discussion on topics.

Here we have a reply that literally, in the 3rd sentence, peddles an absolute proven lie.

"Many folks in Congress...."

Congress voted 96-0 in 2004.

"...and around the world in Europe"

Only one opposed. Russia

I don't know how you propose to have discussion on a topic in which you are doing zero research in support of your comments. If you did, you would see that opening statement is not fact.

NATO was, is and will continue to be a purely defensive alliance. It was never once determined to be an aggressive alliance. It was to defend democracy of burgeoning old Soviet satellites.
Russia didn't fear invasion, they feared isolation. When it became clear they were isolated, they embraced and Putin rose to power.

I would advise that you watch a documentary on Putin. Who he once was, how he became President of Russia, and just what has transpired over the last 25 years under his rule.

Your facts aren't even 50% accurate.

 

[DaveXA]

This why it's so hard to have intelligent debate/discussion on topics.

Here we have a reply that literally, in the 3rd sentence, peddles an absolute proven lie.

"Many folks in Congress...."

Congress voted 96-0 in 2004.

"...and around the world in Europe"

Only one opposed. Russia

I don't know how you propose to have discussion on a topic in which you are doing zero research in support of your comments. If you did, you would see that opening statement is not fact.

NATO was, is and will continue to be a purely defensive alliance. It was never once determined to be an aggressive alliance. It was to defend democracy of burgeoning old Soviet satellites.
Russia didn't fear invasion, they feared isolation. When it became clear they were isolated, they embraced and Putin rose to power.

I would advise that you watch a documentary on Putin. Who he once was, how he became President of Russia, and just what has transpired over the last 25 years under his rule.

Your facts aren't even 50% accurate.

I was about to type up a response, but you beat me to it. You framed it better than I could have.