UnitedHealth CEO shot

[Saintman2884]

What you’re failing to realize is that Stalin happens BECAUSE of the Tzars not in spite of them

You should really educate yourself on what people like Marx really thought of Tsarist Russia in the mid-late 19th century and how realistic he believed any future anarcho-communist society or culture would take root there or in China? He viewed Russia as some backward, scarcely-industrialized, mostly agrarian mass expanse of territory where most of its residents were illiterate and superstitious, uneducated, didn't have a large working or middle class. He also sort of viewed some Russians as being uncivilized, uncultured savages still stuck somewhere in the 17th-18th centuries compared to France, U.K., Scandivinavian countries, Belgium and Marx's native Germany or Prussia. He also sort of felt that compared to many other European industrialized proliterait, most Russian workers were terrible workers. Something Lenin later privately said out loud to confidants.

Many late 19th century socialists, or left-leaning progressives tended to share these same generalized beliefs towards Russia and Russians in general. I can't say, given recent events involving an unprovoked, illegal invasion of Ukraine nearly 3 years ago that some of these sentiments are any less true now then what they were 135 years ago about Russia being a territorially-aggressive, expansionist power.

 

[0rion]

The guy could've been a raging piece of work but I just think about his kids and what they're going through with this. No one deserves this and no one should be judge, jury, and executioner. The system may be broken and unfair but that still doesn't give some vigilante the right to take a father from their children. Hope they find this guy and he pays for what he's done. Will not bring their father back but will at least give them closure.

 

[Saintman2884]

The guy could've been a raging piece of work but I just think about his kids and what they're going through with this. No one deserves this and no one should be judge, jury, and executioner. The system may be broken and unfair but that still doesn't give some vigilante the right to take a father from their children. Hope they find this guy and he pays for what he's done. Will not bring their father back but will at least give them closure.

I agree with you, Orion. But it also shows just how deep-seeded a lot of Americans' resentments and understandable dislike and hatred towards large, multi-national medical insurance corporations and how they seemingly prioritize huge yearly profits over people and strong that animosity runs towards CEO's like Brian Thompson.

Once you take the time to read some of the horror stories, it's admittedly, very difficult to not feel some degree of sympathy for those who find it hard to be particularly broken up by Thompson's death who were massively and unjustly hurt by medical insurance premiums and policies.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

The guy could've been a raging piece of work but I just think about his kids and what they're going through with this. No one deserves this and no one should be judge, jury, and executioner. The system may be broken and unfair but that still doesn't give some vigilante the right to take a father from their children. Hope they find this guy and he pays for what he's done. Will not bring their father back but will at least give them closure.

Is there really any ‘may be broken’ about it?
If one wants to make a distinction between broken and ‘ridiculously flawed and almost completely biased socially and economically’ I suppose that distinction could be made
But your scenario of broken system vs vigilante justice seems to argue that no crime should ever be punished
If health companies can get away with letting people die (or sending them in bankruptcy) so the shareholders get more money - if that action can’t have consequences- what’s the point of having any consequences?

 

[Det. Brees]

Health insurence is horrible. There needs to be major reform. Its almost crosses the threshold and is a ponzie scheme.

 

[Saintman2884]

Well

Is there really any ‘may be broken’ about it?
If one wants to make a distinction between broken and ‘ridiculously flawed and almost completely biased socially and economically’ I suppose that distinction could be made
But your scenario of broken system vs vigilante justice seems to argue that no crime should ever be punished
If health companies can get away with letting people die (or sending them in bankruptcy) so the shareholders get more money - if that action can’t have consequences- what’s the point of having any consequences?

Well, if I'm to put my cards on the table, Guido about 12-13 years ago, I supported and still do the creation of a single-payer health care system and I made it clear then as now that I'd like it to be well-funded, well-run and not be bereft with cost overruns or major deficits. I want a socialized health care system that helps everybody but won't be at the risk of going broke or wittled down 50-60 years later like Social Security.

Good facilities, good, quality doctors, nurses, medical professionals.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

LOL -never waste a crisis, says the doctors trade association.

Everyone has a story about crazy medical bills but then they’re ready to shoot more people when an insurer tries to follow Medicare’s approach to putting a cap on certain expenses.

Well played by the anesthesiologists, who already average about $350k annually.

“We want lower costs! Medicare 4 All!”
-

“Not like that!!”

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

LOL -never waste a crisis, says the doctors trade association.

Everyone has a story about crazy medical bills but then they’re ready to shoot more people when an insurer tries to follow Medicare’s approach to putting a cap on certain expenses.

Well played by the anesthesiologists, who already average about $350k annually.

“We want lower costs! Medicare 4 All!”
-

“Not like that!!”

Isn’t this a cart/horse thing
That it’s Medicare , being overseen by people who fetishize the ‘lean mean’ business model who are emulating private healthcare?

 

[efil4stnias]

LOL -never waste a crisis, says the doctors trade association.

Everyone has a story about crazy medical bills but then they’re ready to shoot more people when an insurer tries to follow Medicare’s approach to putting a cap on certain expenses.

Well played by the anesthesiologists, who already average about $350k annually.

“We want lower costs! Medicare 4 All!”
-

“Not like that!!”

Since we are on about anesthesiologists, good friend of ours is one. Interesting is they are now "contract" labor. They form groups and negotiate pay ( power in numbers ) with the hospitals they provide services for. There are several groups im aware of that all vie for max contracts. He is actually contemplating out of state work because the pay is akin to a NOBRA ship pilot ( $400k/yr plus )

What doesnt get factored is all the folks within the healthcare industry, ALL attempting to maximize their pay/revenue. ALL. So when the CRNA costs go up ( because they negotiated a better deal ), or a physicians group, or nursing group etc etc, just like the free market, the consumer picks up the tab.
Every. single. Time.

I pay $962 for health insurance every 2 weeks. ( family policy thru employer ) Thats $1924/month or $23,088 annual.

Its insane.

So you have all these denizens within the Healthcare Industry ( its own eco system ) - Health insurers, Hospital Groups ( which there are only 3 now i think that own 90% of the hospitals in the US ) Physician groups, specialists groups, nursing groups etc etc. and they are all feeding from the same trough BUT all wanting a larger part of the same trough.

You want good hospitals? you gonna pay
Want good physicians? you gonna pay
specialists? pay
Nurses? pay

Doesnt leave much room for health insurers so when they are blocked on the "payment for services" side, the ONLY other avenue is focusing on claims.

Meanwhile, they ( as a whole ) keep telling us, the consumer, that its what it is for good healthcare. And we keep paying it because we have no alternative choices. So i keep paying $1900~ $50 copay, $75 urgent care copay, $750 ER copay and hope that i can limit those visits as best i can. Thats not how it supposed to work.

Someone mentioned earlier its similar to a ponzi scheme- its not. its a full on monopoly where all the players have a full understanding that the one group that WILL pay for it are the consumers.

 

[superchuck500]

One interesting thing about this is that that jacket is clearly not the same jacket as the guy at the crime scene.

Is this gonna be another Richard Jewel thing or do they have good intel on this guy and he's got different jackets?

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Since we are on about anesthesiologists, good friend of ours is one. Interesting is they are now "contract" labor. They form groups and negotiate pay ( power in numbers ) with the hospitals they provide services for. There are several groups im aware of that all vie for max contracts. He is actually contemplating out of state work because the pay is akin to a NOBRA ship pilot ( $400k/yr plus )

What doesnt get factored is all the folks within the healthcare industry, ALL attempting to maximize their pay/revenue. ALL. So when the CRNA costs go up ( because they negotiated a better deal ), or a physicians group, or nursing group etc etc, just like the free market, the consumer picks up the tab.
Every. single. Time.

I pay $962 for health insurance every 2 weeks. ( family policy thru employer ) Thats $1924/month or $23,088 annual.

Its insane.

So you have all these denizens within the Healthcare Industry ( its own eco system ) - Health insurers, Hospital Groups ( which there are only 3 now i think that own 90% of the hospitals in the US ) Physician groups, specialists groups, nursing groups etc etc. and they are all feeding from the same trough BUT all wanting a larger part of the same trough.

You want good hospitals? you gonna pay
Want good physicians? you gonna pay
specialists? pay
Nurses? pay

Doesnt leave much room for health insurers so when they are blocked on the "payment for services" side, the ONLY other avenue is focusing on claims.

Meanwhile, they ( as a whole ) keep telling us, the consumer, that its what it is for good healthcare. And we keep paying it because we have no alternative choices. So i keep paying $1900~ $50 copay, $75 urgent care copay, $750 ER copay and hope that i can limit those visits as best i can. Thats not how it supposed to work.

Someone mentioned earlier its similar to a ponzi scheme- its not. its a full on monopoly where all the players have a full understanding that the one group that WILL pay for it are the consumers.

I look at it from the angle of the legal profession - for decades the "billable hour" was the only way anyone billed and clients absorbed all the inefficiency and frankly overbilling that went on. It's still the predominant model but you see a lot more fee for services arrangements now - $10K to get through summary judgement phase, $25K if it goes to trial, etc., as opposed to an open-ended meter running for every 6 minutes that any person inside the firm ever spends thinking about your case.

The anesthesiologists are still on the billable hour. Obviously they don't want anyone messing with it.

Then there's the fact that Obamacare made it (health insurance) into a cartel, removing any real competition - there is no longer any option to provide "cheap" insurance (to cover only catastrophic losses). They all must cover pre-existing conditions. Must carry adult children until they're 26, etc. So now every insurer must cover a larger set of services (with the requisite staff and administration that comes with it) and providers know it all MUST be covered, so there is a lot less pricing power.

Plus, doctors enjoy a wonderful reputation so they are immune to the Eat the Rich sentiment that is prevalent in every other aspect of our population.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

LOL -never waste a crisis, says the doctors trade association.

Everyone has a story about crazy medical bills but then they’re ready to shoot more people when an insurer tries to follow Medicare’s approach to putting a cap on certain expenses.

Well played by the anesthesiologists, who already average about $350k annually.

“We want lower costs! Medicare 4 All!”
-

“Not like that!!”

It's a good point, b/c single payer does lower costs by essentially dictating the price they'll pay. And presumably if the price they are willing to pay is below what someone is willing to work for, then the outcome is nobody gets that service at all. Which is why price controls often lead to massive shortages and can be miserable failures.

The crux is an issue of trust... there's going to be some "bureaucrat" controlling what gets reimbursed/allowed. Who do you trust to be the one making that call? With insurance companies, particularly in a system where there isn't a lot of real competition (being tied to your place of employment for many of us, and even the exchanges have limited choice) - there is a strong profit incentive to deny costs, and not a lot of fear that consumers will be able to switch to a more generous provider. With a public option, the metric will be something different, though presumably, cost will still be a major driver.

It's been talked about for decades... our current system does not work great. We pay more for worse outcomes than our European counterparts. We pay a LOT more. So clearly there are massive inefficiencies... and we have a dysfunctional system that refuses to correct it.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Isn’t this a cart/horse thing
That it’s Medicare , being overseen by people who fetishize the ‘lean mean’ business model who are emulating private healthcare?

Single payer comes with rules, both in what services are covered and the compensation paid to providers. Which is why so many doctors try to avoid Medicare patients.

 

[J-Donk]

It's a good point, b/c single payer does lower costs by essentially dictating the price they'll pay. And presumably if the price they are willing to pay is below what someone is willing to work for, then the outcome is nobody gets that service at all. Which is why price controls often lead to massive shortages and can be miserable failures.

The crux is an issue of trust... there's going to be some "bureaucrat" controlling what gets reimbursed/allowed. Who do you trust to be the one making that call? With insurance companies, particularly in a system where there isn't a lot of real competition (being tied to your place of employment for many of us, and even the exchanges have limited choice) - there is a strong profit incentive to deny costs, and not a lot of fear that consumers will be able to switch to a more generous provider. With a public option, the metric will be something different, though presumably, cost will still be a major driver.

It's been talked about for decades... our current system does not work great. We pay more for worse outcomes than our European counterparts. We pay a LOT more. So clearly there are massive inefficiencies... and we have a dysfunctional system that refuses to correct it.

Realistically, no one is quitting unless they are retiring. There can be no "medical flight" with 1000's of doctors fleeing the states. Every other first world country is single payer as well.

The easiest way to model it would be take the average, adjusted in dollars, in all these other markets and determine a "market rate" for each procedure. It will have some excepetions, but that would work for the vast majority of procedures.