Ukraine (25 Viewers)

[faceman]

And the ignorant masses continue to be misinformed or deliberately ignorant to what's actually happening there. It's quite maddening that we're pissing away what leverage and influence we've had over the last 70 years or so.

As someone famously said, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Except in this case it's actually going to be a worse outcome.

yes if WW3 comes, we are going to be the bad guys the way things are now

 

[DaveXA]

yes if WW3 comes, we are going to be the bad guys the way things are now

Possibly. I do hope that we'll just be "late" like we were in WW2. A lot of people forget we were largely isolationist and waited way too long before getting involved in the conflict. The Allies ultimately prevailed, but it very easily been flipped had some key decisions been different.

 

[Sailorsaint]

Possibly. I do hope that we'll just be "late" like we were in WW2. A lot of people forget we were largely isolationist and waited way too long before getting involved in the conflict. The Allies ultimately prevailed, but it very easily been flipped had some key decisions been different.

And a lot of people forget, or don't know, that russia joined Germany in invading and occupying Poland. They were a member of the Axis that consisted of Germany, Italy, and Japan. It was only after Hitler broke his agreement with Stalin that russia joined the allies. And they would have been over run by Germany if not for getting help from the U.S.. War has a way of bringing the bad together with the good in order to survive.

The 1920s, so far, have been an eerie mirror to the 2020s. If we start getting deeper into the 1930s, I have to wonder who will be playing which part in this historical repeat.

 

[DaveXA]

And a lot of people forget, or don't know, that russia joined Germany in invading and occupying Poland. They were a member of the Axis that consisted of Germany, Italy, and Japan. It was only after Hitler broke his agreement with Stalin that russia joined the allies. And they would have been over run by Germany if not for getting help from the U.S.. War has a way of bringing the bad together with the good in order to survive.

The 1920s, so far, have been an eerie mirror to the 2020s. If we start getting deeper into the 1930s, I have to wonder who will be playing which part in this historical repeat.

Well said. Good points.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

But Ukraine was already provided guarantees- including not being invaded by Russia and if they were we would aid them explicitly - when they agreed to give up their nukes.

And look where that got them.

The idea that anybody but Ukraine gets to decide when enough is enough is ludicrous. They were freaking invaded and occupied since 2014. They are bleeding the Russians and Russia can't continue this for much longer relatively speaking.

It is weird to me that We the People aren't always on the side of fledgling nations in the face of tyranny.

Which is why "peacekeepers" are part of the deal - Russia couldn't attack Ukraine without attacking other nations.

 

[boutte]

Which is why "peacekeepers" are part of the deal - Russia couldn't attack Ukraine without attacking other nations.

That hasn't worked out in the past. The only way it will work is if the "Peace Keepers" are armed to the teeth and ready brawl. Putin will never go for it. In the end the US will sell Ukraine out unless they sign their independence and control of their resources away to the Trump administration. And our once independent media will push it as a triumph for America.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

That hasn't worked out in the past. The only way it will work is if the "Peace Keepers" are armed to the teeth and ready brawl. Putin will never go for it. In the end the US will sell Ukraine out unless they sign their independence and control of their resources away to the Trump administration. And our once independent media will push it as a triumph for America.

Its worked in Kosovo/Serbia and Korea.

And yes I think the peacekeepers will be well armed. But their real value is basically tripwire forces. Putin couldn't attack without effectively declaring war on the countries that send peacekeepers

I would really like to have heard the alternatives, that didn't involve direct intervention of outside (probably mostly US) forces. The current trajectory was/is not favoring Ukraine at all

 

[efil4stnias]

Its worked in Kosovo/Serbia and Korea.

And yes I think the peacekeepers will be well armed. But their real value is basically tripwire forces. Putin couldn't attack without effectively declaring war on the countries that send peacekeepers

I would really like to have heard the alternatives, that didn't involve direct intervention of outside (probably mostly US) forces. The current trajectory was/is not favoring Ukraine at all

Serbia ( Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ) didnt agree to anything until NATO got involved. Peacekeepers came AFTER, not BEFORE, US/NATO bombed them repeatedly for almost 3 months before they relented and signed ceasefire and agreed to peacekeepers.

so then stands to reason, you would be fine with invoking Article 5 and US/NATO flying bombing missions against Russians in illegally held occupied territory?

 

[DaveXA]

Its worked in Kosovo/Serbia and Korea.

And yes I think the peacekeepers will be well armed. But their real value is basically tripwire forces. Putin couldn't attack without effectively declaring war on the countries that send peacekeepers

I would really like to have heard the alternatives, that didn't involve direct intervention of outside (probably mostly US) forces. The current trajectory was/is not favoring Ukraine at all

The problem is Ukraine has insisted on relying on their own population and some very limited assistance in terms of boots on the ground. They've received a ton of logistical support and equipment/weapons, but soldiers on the ground are almost entirely Ukrainians or volunteer support from other countries. I don't think they have any outside peacekeeping forces on or near the front lines that I'm aware of.

And I'm not sure NATO can put boots on the ground at this point. Without the blessing of the US, I don't think anything happens like that. And Ukraine isn't getting into NATO without US support.

What could maybe happen is the EU on their own could send "peacekeepers" but I don't think the US or Russia would see it that way.

Ukraine is in an untenable position without the US fully behind them. I hope the EU doesn't back down and holds our feet to the fire, but I'm not sure Trump will care.

 

[SaintJ]

And Ukraine isn't getting into NATO without US support.

I doubt we will even be in NATO a year from now, and the French, Germans and British can admit whom they please.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

Serbia ( Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ) didnt agree to anything until NATO got involved. Peacekeepers came AFTER, not BEFORE, US/NATO bombed them repeatedly for almost 3 months before they relented and signed ceasefire and agreed to peacekeepers.

so then stands to reason, you would be fine with invoking Article 5 and US/NATO flying bombing missions against Russians in illegally held occupied territory?

We can't invoke Article 5 on Ukraine since they're not in it. We also couldn't even invoke it even if our forces were stationed there and attacked, because language of the treaty is very specific - only protects military forces on national territory and naval assets in the North Atlantic (more or less - there are some additional provisions such as French forces in Algeria, etc. but it wouldn't apply to forces in Ukraine)

But yeah if I was POTUS right now, I would give Putin ultimatum on what I think would be acceptable peace. Mostly freezing conflict on roughly current lines - as much as a bitter pill that is to swallow for Ukraine. Otherwise I would allow airstrikes on any Russian military assets currently on Ukranian territory. UAF would then be free to mop up. Basically the threat would be, knock it off or you end up losing anything you gained.

 

[DaveXA]

I doubt we will even be in NATO a year from now, and the French, Germans and British can admit whom they please.

I definitely wouldn't rule that out. We'd turn several decades of geopolitics on its head if that happened. Would be utterly stupid, but who knows with what's happening in DC these days.

 

[Tapxe]

what's happening in DC these days.

A recent Economist/YouGov poll found that a majority of U.S. adults have an unfavorable view of Trump (52 percent), while 46 percent view him positively, giving the president a net favorability score of minus 6 percentage points.

Morning Consult poll of 2,230 registered voters, conducted February 7-9, found Trump's favorability rating at 47 percent, with 50 percent viewing him unfavorably.

Two weeks ago, 50 percent of adults under 30 had a favorable opinion of Trump, while 46 percent had an unfavorable opinion; today, 39 percent have a favorable opinion and 57 percent have an unfavorable opinion.

"The president's net favorability rating is also back in the red. Voters are 3 percentage points more likely to have an unfavorable than favorable view of Trump. Those are his worst numbers since November, and also worse than they were at this time eight years ago."

 

[efil4stnias]

We can't invoke Article 5 on Ukraine since they're not in it. We also couldn't even invoke it even if our forces were stationed there and attacked, because language of the treaty is very specific - only protects military forces on national territory and naval assets in the North Atlantic (more or less - there are some additional provisions such as French forces in Algeria, etc. but it wouldn't apply to forces in Ukraine)

But yeah if I was POTUS right now, I would give Putin ultimatum on what I think would be acceptable peace. Mostly freezing conflict on roughly current lines - as much as a bitter pill that is to swallow for Ukraine. Otherwise I would allow airstrikes on any Russian military assets currently on Ukranian territory. UAF would then be free to mop up. Basically the threat would be, knock it off or you end up losing anything you gained.

Freezing along current lines doesn't address Kursk.

I don't disagree there will have to be some concession. But minimal at best. Russia has to be held to task or they will do this again.

 

[CoolBrees]

This is not how we should be doing this.

Not including Ukraine is sinister.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/europe-says-it-is-committed-ukraine-ahead-russia-us-talks-2025-02-18/