Demanding, Detailed, Accountable Klint Kubiak is winning over coaches and players alike (2 Viewers)

[texasjefe]

Happy for the offensive players, who get a big morale boost of shipping out the dead fish, who could not adapt to anything or anyone.

Paired with bringing in the guy with the modern route tree and timing, and has all the mentors who made and make QB's better.

The Saints need this to be their new offense going forward. If he can settle down and protect Carr, and run the ball then it may take some early root.

 

[VPCajun]

I feel like the system may allow for easier development of QBs but it may expose skill position players who don’t study. The 49ers drafted several WRs in Shanahans first few years that didn’t pan out, and based on what we’ve been told it was likely because they weren’t in the playbook enough.

So skill position guys may be harder to develop or get instant impacts from. Where in Payton’s system you could get a Kenny Still, Marques Colston, Michael Thomas or Chris Olave to produce year 1. Every now and again you got a Meachem or a Nick Toon but you ended up with far more contributors like Lance Moore than not had Future HOF Drew Brees...

fify

 

[bobad]

Pete was not short on smarts and play design, but didn't seem to be an alpha that the players would study and play hard for. Payton backed him up, so he got by without being a strong personality.

Really, a team needs a HC that's the heart of both the offense and defense to prevent poaching of their assistants. No one was going to poach a DA or PC, so we kept them for years, many of which were very successful. The HC needs assistants that are loyal and 100% sold on his coaching philosophy.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Pete was not short on smarts and play design, but didn't seem to be an alpha that the players would study and play hard for. Payton backed him up, so he got by without being a strong personality.

Really, a team needs a HC that's the heart of both the offense and defense to prevent poaching of their assistants. No one was going to poach a DA or PC, so we kept them for years, many of which were very successful. The HC needs assistants that are loyal and 100% sold on his coaching philosophy.

I disagree to an extent.

In what way was Sean Payton ever the heart of a defense? His entire tenure here he relied on strong defensive personalities to build the culture on the other side of the ball.

In fact, Payton had his DA/Carmichael experience with Gary Gibbs. He never hired that personality type again on the defensive side of the ball.

Sure you’d like John Harbaugh or even a Jim Harbaugh or Belichik where they create a culture that encompasses the team, but those guys are rare. You’re more likely to get a good offensive or defensive mind that relies on his counterpart to build up the other side of the ball.

We tend to remember Sean Payton in this mythical way but he was no different from DA in that his success was dependent on who he chose to run his defense, and when he chose wrong the results weren’t good

 

[St.Dan]

I feel like the system may allow for easier development of QBs but it may expose skill position players who don’t study. The 49ers drafted several WRs in Shanahans first few years that didn’t pan out, and based on what we’ve been told it was likely because they weren’t in the playbook enough.

So skill position guys may be harder to develop or get instant impacts from. Where in Payton’s system you could get a Kenny Still, Marques Colston, Michael Thomas or Chris Olave to produce year 1. Every now and again you got a Meachem or a Nick Toon but you ended up with far more contributors like Lance Moore than not.

Agreed with that except for the word Meachem. Yes, it took two seasons to see the field for more than five minutes but he bloomed quickly in his third year and was a reliable go-route runner and blocker downfield. Plus, the freak play of the year in Washington that kept the undefeated streak going.

 

[jahsoul357]

It’s just practice. I doubt Winston didn’t know the Saints playbook. I think he was impulsive with his decision making when the bullets were flying. Don’t get me wrong, i think Carr had the same issue to an extent.

I remember when someone interviewed Derek’s brother on NFL Network before he was signed by the Saints. He said that Derek loved the idea that Pete lets’s the QB call the plays when waranted. I think JW and DC were both humbled by that experience. They have OC’s for a reason and they are no Drew Brees when it comes to checking to play based on what he sees. Drew Brees probably had late night studies of game film. DC and JW seemed to have the autonomy to basically call their own plays as they see fit. There was no standard operating procedure.

I think it was a glitch in PC’s system that eventually was corrected but too late. Bottom line is PC’s offensive gameplan was built for the next Drew Brees. DC is not Drew Brees but he is damn good QB and much better than JW when under pressure. I think JW would be great with one of the best offensive lines ever

The best QB’s are good decision makers when under stress. You have some Qb’s that get by on talent (Cam Newton). I think JW will thrive in a system that is structured and tailored for him. Saints offense was never that, so i wish him well in Cleveland.

I think JW and Carr are very similar in their approach of how they want an air raid type of offense. The opposing defenses were playing chess, while we were playing checkers IMO. The difference is Carr i think is just better at decision making under pressure.

Hopefully this new philosophy or system that Kubiak runs either limits the QB’s ability to check out of plays or enhances their ability to make a good decision.

Yeah, it's practice but what's noticed is how he is grasping and taking a command of brand new offense with brand new terminology on an entirely different team. And that decision making stuff really don't fly when you break down the layers of the offense. Most of his interceptions with Tampa came from throwing downfield, in tight windows because he played in an offense that required him to throw further than most in tighter windows than most. People thought 2019 cemented that notion, but then that pesky tape.

There are also some question marks around what you stated:
-Pete Carmichael's offense isn't built for the next Drew Brees, just like CSP's wasn't in 2021. Case in point; our motion usage and play-action was higher the year after Drew retired than it was the next 2 seasons.
-The narrative around Jameis and pressure needs to die. From 2016-2018 and 2021, he was rated and graded as one of the best QBs under pressure. Gotta look at the games..lol. A lot of people won't admit that 2019 is all they really know about Winston. Below is from 2018 going into the 2019 season.




-Neither Carr nor Winston has operated in an Air Raid offense. Carr has run a WCO offense up until McDaniels. Winston ran Jimbo Fisher's version of the Erhardt-Perkins system (Multiple offense), a 4-vert based Coryell, and Bruce Arians "No Risk It, No Biscuit" Coryell. Why would they want to operate in an offense they've never played in?
-And I see nothing wrong with Kubiak limiting the offense. We have a 2-time MVP and current Super Bowl winner that's probably running the most QB friendly scheme in the NFL..lol. The QBs people look at currently as the best ain't really doing as much as you think they are..lol

Just a note, Either Underhill or someone else mentioned that Armstead was willing to take less money if we could get Watson.

We were in QB purgatory at the time. There were rumors we tried to hire other coordinators but we kind of had to settle on Pete, likely because the job was unattractive to due to uncertainty at QB.

Kubiak himself said working with Carr was one of reasons he was excited to take job.

As I’ve been saying for a while DA wasn’t put in a great situation to start. Salary cap was meh, QB situation meh, he was asked to come immediately behind the most successful coach in Saints history, draft capital was meh, roster depth meh…and yet he took the job.

He was then asked to “hold” things in place for continuity sake. 48 laws of power suggest one of the worst things you can do, when having to replace someone popular, is follow in their path. Unfortunately for the 1st two years he was trying to keep together a culture and philosophy that predated him with band aids and duct tape.

Now, this isn’t to absolve him of the situation. He made bad decisions, and yet each year he’s made better ones. He’s showing growth as a HC, perhaps not as fast as some would like, but there’s growth.

I wonder how that paycut would have worked out for Armstead when reality hit that Watson was hyped up on a season where he all about the empty calories and how he would be viewed, since Watson had the 4th highest sack rate in the NFL in 2020 while holding the ball the longest. lol

Glad the homie found his way to Miami...

Yep. It's starting to sound like the amount of people who claimed they were at Woodstock or Marched with Dr. King,, everybody claims to have known that keeping Carmicheal was a bad idea. I'll admit it. I thought it was a good idea for continuity. It turned out to be wrong but can't blame DA for that.

I can't speak for everybody but a couple of us were talking about how bad playcalling was since the first week of 2022. Everybody wanted to blame the QB until they didn't...

I posted this Week 4 of 2022..

At this point, it should be very clear that coaching is a very legitimate issue and quite possibly the main issue, as my man @BayouSAINTJoe been calling out since jump street.

Last season, first 4 games we averaged at least 3 offensive TDs per game. This season, we are struggling to make it down the field, no matter who is under center. No matter what "team" you are on, those goggles might need to be taken off and we need to direct blame where it should be placed.

 

[SweetT]

Yep. It's starting to sound like the amount of people who claimed they were at Woodstock or Marched with Dr. King,, everybody claims to have known that keeping Carmicheal was a bad idea. I'll admit it. I thought it was a good idea for continuity. It turned out to be wrong but can't blame DA for that.

Actually does get blamed for that. He watched an entire season of inept offense, yet kept the same offense, and still doubled down by not moving on from PC sooner (rather than later) (in year 2), when it’s possible that had he made the move to fire PC sooner, we could’ve gotten into the playoffs. That we will never know obviously, but it could’ve happened. I say that bc the Bills and the Steelers fired their OCs, then both got into the playoffs. Yet we stayed the course and we all know that we punched our ticket to Cancun after our final regular season game.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Actually does get blamed for that. He watched an entire season of inept offense, yet kept the same offense, and still doubled down by not moving on from PC sooner (rather than later) (in year 2), when it’s possible that had he made the move to fire PC sooner, we could’ve gotten into the playoffs. That we will never know obviously, but it could’ve happened. I say that bc the Bills and the Steelers fired their OCs, then both got into the playoffs. Yet we stayed the course and we all know that we punched our ticket to Cancun after our final regular season game.

How long did Sean Payton stick w/ Gary Gibbs after the 06 season? 2 years, 07 and 08.

How long did DA stick with Pete? 2 years.

That’s standard. Pete received a mulligan after working with questionable QB talent year 1. Year 2 he had Carr and couldn’t produce, so they moved on. The timeline is very appropriate considering the circumstances. Y’all are just committed to finding reasons that DA is a terrible decision maker when there’s proof that the coach he’s being compared to made exactly the same decisions in the same scenarios along the same timelines.

 

[DSnfla]

Just a note, Either Underhill or someone else mentioned that Armstead was willing to take less money if we could get Watson.

We were in QB purgatory at the time. There were rumors we tried to hire other coordinators but we kind of had to settle on Pete, likely because the job was unattractive to due to uncertainty at QB.

Kubiak himself said working with Carr was one of reasons he was excited to take job.

As I’ve been saying for a while DA wasn’t put in a great situation to start. Salary cap was meh, QB situation meh, he was asked to come immediately behind the most successful coach in Saints history, draft capital was meh, roster depth meh…and yet he took the job.

He was then asked to “hold” things in place for continuity sake. 48 laws of power suggest one of the worst things you can do, when having to replace someone popular, is follow in their path. Unfortunately for the 1st two years he was trying to keep together a culture and philosophy that predated him with band aids and duct tape.

Now, this isn’t to absolve him of the situation. He made bad decisions, and yet each year he’s made better ones. He’s showing growth as a HC, perhaps not as fast as some would like, but there’s growth.

If I remember correctly we were going to re-sign Armstead but we were trying to free up $ to sign Watson and couldn't commit to a figure for Armstead, the whole Watson thing took so long that TA could not wait and signed with the Phins, I could be wrong though but that's what I remember hearing.
I agree on the QB purgatory part. Also if I remember Nick saying that only 1 OC candidate turned down the OC job in 22 , I'd have to dig to find out who that was
But you're right DA didn't inherit a full cupboard. He overestimated that " The table is set all I have to do is carve the turkey" statement. Now granted SP was a better carver and probably would have done a better job on the turkey

 

[SweetT]

How long did Sean Payton stick w/ Gary Gibbs after the 06 season? 2 years, 07 and 08.

How long did DA stick with Pete? 2 years.

That’s standard. Pete received a mulligan after working with questionable QB talent year 1. Year 2 he had Carr and couldn’t produce, so they moved on. The timeline is very appropriate considering the circumstances. Y’all are just committed to finding reasons that DA is a terrible decision maker when there’s proof that the coach he’s being compared to made exactly the same decisions in the same scenarios along the same timelines.

And SP was to blame for keeping certain goons on his coaching staff too long as well……I’m on record for blasting SP a million times over for wasting Drew Brees’ prime with terrible defenses. Blame for coaches is NOT exclusive to just . The HC should assume all potential blame for coaching decisions plain and simple, hence why they are called the HEAD COACH. Sean McDermott and Mike Tomlin made tough/harsh decisions, to change the course of their seasons. Those two were going to assume blame, if those decisions did not work out. So, why does not get blame when our offense stalled for way longer than those two teams?

Btw, Ken Dorsey didn’t even last two full seasons and he had a young talented franchise QB. So it doesn’t matter if you have a good QB or not. The job of an OC is to get your offense to produce with what you have. Example: Brian Callahan took a Jake Browning led offense (when Burrow went down) to a 4-3 record to finish the season. So let’s not give mulligans to anyone when they have a job to do. PC knew this offense like the back of his hand. So did a lot of our players. Somehow, we didn’t manage to get better. Maybe just maybe, Sneaky Pete should’ve got the axe sooner, but I get it………the axe was for chopping wood purposes

 

[Fiyo]

Just a note, Either Underhill or someone else mentioned that Armstead was willing to take less money if we could get Watson.

We were in QB purgatory at the time. There were rumors we tried to hire other coordinators but we kind of had to settle on Pete, likely because the job was unattractive to due to uncertainty at QB.

Kubiak himself said working with Carr was one of reasons he was excited to take job.

As I’ve been saying for a while DA wasn’t put in a great situation to start. Salary cap was meh, QB situation meh, he was asked to come immediately behind the most successful coach in Saints history, draft capital was meh, roster depth meh…and yet he took the job.

He was then asked to “hold” things in place for continuity sake. 48 laws of power suggest one of the worst things you can do, when having to replace someone popular, is follow in their path. Unfortunately for the 1st two years he was trying to keep together a culture and philosophy that predated him with band aids and duct tape.

Now, this isn’t to absolve him of the situation. He made bad decisions, and yet each year he’s made better ones. He’s showing growth as a HC, perhaps not as fast as some would like, but there’s growth.

Thank you. That’s all. … Thank you. Realizing others feel the same way makes me feel good. And that’s the way being part of SR should make us feel

 

[DSnfla]

Actually does get blamed for that. He watched an entire season of inept offense, yet kept the same offense, and still doubled down by not moving on from PC sooner (rather than later) (in year 2), when it’s possible that had he made the move to fire PC sooner, we could’ve gotten into the playoffs. That we will never know obviously, but it could’ve happened. I say that bc the Bills and the Steelers fired their OCs, then both got into the playoffs. Yet we stayed the course and we all know that we punched our ticket to Cancun after our final regular season game.

Firing PC mid-season I doubt would have any effect on us making the playoffs. And give it to who Curry? a guy that never called plays in a reg season game? Or maybe Marrone, the guy who almost singlehandedly destroyed our OL? . The Bills firing Dorsey had little to do with them turning it around, it was more Allen stopped stinking up the joint

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

If I remember correctly we were going to re-sign Armstead but we were trying to free up $ to sign Watson and couldn't commit to a figure for Armstead, the whole Watson thing took so long that TA could not wait and signed with the Phins, I could be wrong though but that's what I remember hearing.
I agree on the QB purgatory part. Also if I remember Nick saying that only 1 OC candidate turned down the OC job in 22 , I'd have to dig to find out who that was
But you're right DA didn't inherit a full cupboard. He overestimated that " The table is set all I have to do is carve the turkey" statement. Now granted SP was a better carver and probably would have done a better job on the turkey

I remember it differently. I remember TA holding out until after the air cleared w/ Watson to sign w/ Dolphins. He wanted to know we were getting a QB b4 making a decision.

In fact Watson was traded on March 20, Terron signed w/ Dolphins Mar 22. He was indeed waiting and it confirms what Underhill reported at the time that Armstead would have returned if we’d nabbed Watson

Actually it was Matt Miller

Saints free agent Terron Armstead waiting on Deshaun Watson situation

The NFL world is wondering why we haven't heard much about New Orleans Saints free agent tackle Terron Armstead and now we know why.

whodatdish.com

 

[SweetT]

Firing PC mid-season I doubt would have any effect on us making the playoffs. And give it to who Curry? a guy that never called plays in a reg season game? Or maybe Marrone, the guy who almost singlehandedly destroyed our OL? . The Bills firing Dorsey had little to do with them turning it around, it was more Allen stopped stinking up the joint

So if you have deflated players sulking in post game interviews, having no answers bc they are trying to be dismissive in regards to poor execution, you’re telling me that even a small chance couldn’t possibly uplift them? If they are happy now that there is a new OC, imagine what they would’ve felt like in that moment (or moments) when a change was needed. No one knows if a change would’ve changed our course, but even if a change didn’t work, then we would’ve still been where we finished last year, with no playoff berth.
Oh and about your tidbit of Curry. Every first time OC has never called plays at the NFL level. So what does that even mean by he has never called plays? You think all OCs just magically wake up one morning with experience at calling plays? Plus, if never had anyone behind PC who he trusted stepping into that role, if things went South, which they did, then that is an indictment on the coaching of as well. You have to have people prepared to assume the wheels of the operations.
Last but not least, maybe Dorsey was the problem. I know, it’s completely ironic how the Bills won 6 of their last 7 games AFTER Dorsey was fired. But yeah, that was all Josh Allen. He doesn’t need an offensive system, he just needs to stop stinking it up. Nothing to see there

 

[syeager]

My apologies. I drank a lot at the pool today. Yall enjoy