clearing the deck - the marriage status thread (5 Viewers)

[Madmarsha]

I'd like to apologize for derailing Guido's sincere, heartfelt thread with a detour to fart city with my post (which to be fair was related to the situation)

That wasn't my intent and hope he doesn't raise a stink about it

If he is upset, I truly hope we can clear the air and make a fresh start

Was it derailed or just migrated to the NYE thread for a time?

 

[saintmdterps]

No m’am. At my big age, I will not be sticking around to fix anybody or wait for them to deal with things that should have been resolved before meeting me. I know healing is a life-long journey and that I get but certain things need to be dealt with before moving on.

I get told by my friends that I am too picky. My response is that I am not ugly, I have a nice career and make good enough money to comfortably support myself, get myself most of the things I want, take myself on several nice vacations every year, etc.

I've done the work. I've done therapy in various forms. I've spent years alone and not even dating/fwb with anyone at various periods in my life. I very much know who I am and what I am looking for in a partner - and my reasons for partnership are no longer centered around some of the more superficial reasons for partnership I was seeking in my late 20's/early-mid 30's.

Most of the people I know who are married settled; mostly *I think* due to superficial things - inability to be alone, societal/familial pressures to be married, subsidizing bills or being taken care of financially, urgency to have kids, etc. They have tolerated a lot of really bad stuff (the list of things is really long & not pertinent to my point) and experience other significant imbalances in their marriage and are really unhappy. Fortunately my best friend of 20 years has a really wonderful marriage between two very committed and practical people and has served as my north star for what I am seeking - and if it isn't that, I don't want it.

I also was listening to a podcast last year where the host was interviewing this behavioral scientist. I can't remember who but he was talking about how dating apps have impacted dating, expectations, etc (people thinking they have endless options and then nothing is ever good enough). He cited a study where employers are looking for a new employee, if they have a stack of resumes of say 100, they get through about 30 resumes before they decide to pick the best out of those 30 candidates.

So the template for dating he laid out was to take your dating history, reflect on your past relationships, identifying the partner who exhibited the most positive qualities & characteristics that best aligned with what you want in a long-term partner and then actively seek someone who shares those traits to build a new relationship upon.

If you have no dating history, you probably should do some of that before settling down. Especially if you married very young.

Wait til you're 63, then see how little you feel like sticking around for people to sort themselves out

I get hammered for being honest. Tough. Here's the heavy **** and if it's too much we don't need to move forward. I'll not waste her time and she need not waste mine. By most metrics at 63 I'm 3/4 of the way through my life. I'm in good health. I exercise. I socialize. I have hobbies. All that said I probably have another 10 or so good years. Damned if I'll spend it going down some rabbit hole. When someone says her relationship situation "is complicated" I'm out. When you figure it out get back to me.

I've mentioned before I'm not looking for some pie in the sky ideal. I'm not looking for perfection and can't offer it. We don't get to this point in life without some battle scars.

 

[Tapxe]

I hear what you're saying, but I agree 100% with CCS. From what I gather the guy was asking her on only the second date. "How do you feel about us?" "Too soon to answer but we can revisit once you're actually divorced and free to pursue a new relationship" would be my response. At least he was honest about where he is regarding his relationship with his ex, so there's that. CCS was then honest with him regarding her feelings about his current position.

CCS decided she did know enough about him to not risk getting into a relationship with someone with those red flags. It's a fair choice and she didn't want to take the chance of being hurt. I think it's safe to say that on the second date you don't know each other well enough to decide anything, except whether or not there should be a third date. Early on my separation I met a woman with whom there was mutual interest. "Nothing happens until you're divorced. I went down that road before and got burned by the reconciliation that was never going to happen" I understood completely. We're still friends.

It's not her job to help him navigate the process that leads to his divorce. Here where I live we have the Family Law Resource Center, which is operated free of charge by the state of Maryland and they will hold your hand (like they're holding mine) and get you through the process of filing the necessary paperwork. I cannot and would not help anyone through their custody and division of marital property issues by the second date. I don't know enough about their life and it's not my ******* business this early in the game.

We can be cool, date, be friends, even FWB if appropriate, but we're not getting into anything serious until that divorce is final. In Maryland it takes about 2 weeks if both parties agree. Cost is $165.00

It's going to take me a bit longer because my ex is fighting me on division of property. Fine. I filed and the state will order mediation. We will abide by the mediator's decision.

I bolded why I got what I got from CCS. Only she can say if I'm right or wrong, I was only pointing out that she did not give any benefit of doubt. She admittedly did not ask him questions or make any attempt to move forward because she'd decided who he was.

CCS's next post and knowing this was an older event makes me think she's got a lot more work done and moved on possibly never considering her actions in such an old brief situation. No shame or judgement as I've been there. I'm only pointing out that there was his side of the story and she immediately questioned and disbelieved based on her own motivation rather than digging to see if he was truly interested in growing as a person.

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

I'm going to take you to task on this.

It's 100% possible to be in a relationship where the wife does not communicate and values around the kids changed in her mind but she never told him. I've been thru that so ur assumptions are simply that assumptions in my opinion.

From my pov and possibly his, you decided u knew everything about the man and got turned off because he was willing to be vulnerable. Men don't get a whole lot of help figuring out emotions and we do it much differently than women. He got judgement and rejection in a difficult time.

My therapist would ask me if I self-sabotaged by not even giving someone a chance to prove who they are and who they are becoming. I mean, here's a person willing to be open and honest with me and rather than communicate I projected my insecurities on them instead of opening up and connecting to that vulnerability. Was I the one not ready to move forward?

I think you're triangulating & taking my decision to not date a man that is very fresh out of a 25 year relationship & 20 year marriage too personally and clearly from a position of rejection or whatever it is you seem to be going through (because this is twice in 2 separate threads where you seem to be placing all the blame on a woman for what you seem to be alluding to exploiting a man being vulnerable).

I don't believe it's possible that there was a lack of communication. No communication is a form of communication. You don't spend 25 years together, have children that are teenagers and overnight someone decides to get separated and divorced because you were too hard on y'all's son over sports that he's played his entire life. If that is the case, there were clearly some underlying issues that were swept under the rug and never addressed by either of them. Plus, as I mentioned, that's only HIS version of the reasons.

No matter how bad a marriage is, barring some sort of real abuse, is it ever one person's fault. One person's actions may have been more catipulting than the other but usually, there is plenty of blame to go around. Sometimes it isn't the actions you took that led to divorce but your inactions.

I didn't get turned off because he was vulnerable with me. I was turned off because he is still very much married, not over his still-wife and a 25 year relationship/20 year marriage and has not accepted any accountability for why things went wrong - at least he didn't to me. I actually respect that he was at least open and honest because most men would lie and try to make me believe one thing while doing another. I didn't insult him or do anything other than make a choice not to date him because he has some things he needs to do before dragging another person into his life.

 

[Madmarsha]

No m’am. At my big age, I will not be sticking around to fix anybody or wait for them to deal with things that should have been resolved before meeting me. I know healing is a life-long journey and that I get but certain things need to be dealt with before moving on ....

I'm another one that could tell -- before married -- within a date or two that, yeah, I'm checking out if I heard something I wasn't down for. I was never a "fixer" in romantic relationships like many women are. I always wondered whether that meant I was "too picky", but I'm positive at this point that it meant I dodged some bullets. And, frankly, when I hear a woman say something like, Oh, he never treated me good from the get go, I wonder why they weren't more picky.

And declining to continue to date a man is not automatically the same thing as denigrating him for having and showing emotions.

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

I bolded why I got what I got from CCS. Only she can say if I'm right or wrong, I was only pointing out that she did not give any benefit of doubt. She admittedly did not ask him questions or make any attempt to move forward because she'd decided who he was.

CCS's next post and knowing this was an older event makes me think she's got a lot more work done and moved on possibly never considering her actions in such an old brief situation. No shame or judgement as I've been there. I'm only pointing out that there was his side of the story and she immediately questioned and disbelieved based on her own motivation rather than digging to see if he was truly interested in growing as a person.

I asked questions. I got in-depth answers beyond what I asked for which gave me insight as to where he is emotionally and mentally. This happened in November. I reiterate that when I met him, he was only separated for 4 months. 3 of those 4 months he was under the impression that he was going back home at the end of 3 months & very much wanted to save his marriage. When I met him, he was only a month removed from being told the trial separation was permanent. He is 48 years old and had been with his wife since he was 20 (with some openness in the relationship when he was in the NFL & Euro league). Married for 20 years. You don't get over that in 1 month - particularly if you were the one "blindsided" by the separation and not wanting the divorce.

They have a $1.2 million dollar house that they do not intend to sell until June-ish when this school year was over due to the kids. Speaking of kids, he works remotely. For some reason, the wife's mom is living with his wife helping her with school pickups and taking the kids to sports. Why isn't he doing that? Why is he living in a short-term rental centrally when they live up in the suburbs and if he was truly "over it" and there was "no going back" why doesn't he have a permanent place up near his kids to help with things with the kids because supposedly they both have agreed to keeping the kids in the same school because they are in high school?

At the end of the day, I don't need to ask questions. He's still married and that's enough for me to say no. I am not required to give anyone still married the benefit of the doubt. I am completely free and able to date and fully commit myself to someone. I am under no obligation to do the same for someone else who cannot.

And if he was already divorced and had his life sorted out & able to really be in a relationship, all this baggage would have never had to be a topic of discussion FOR A SECOND DATE and we would have instead been discussing our likes and dislikes and seeing if we were compatible as opposed to negotiating a potential situation in which he was still married. JFC I cannot believe I even have to explain this.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I'd like to apologize for derailing Guido's sincere, heartfelt thread with a detour to fart city with my post (which to be fair was related to the situation)

That wasn't my intent and hope he doesn't raise a stink about it

If he is upset, I truly hope we can clear the air and make a fresh start

are you gaslighting me?

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

And declining to continue to date a man is not automatically the same thing as denigrating him for having and showing emotions.

This. Thank you.

 

[saintmdterps]

This. Thank you.

The guy was honest and he took his lumps. He should be okay with that. Doesn't sound like he's remotely ready to move on.

Yeah, If it's in the cards get those final divorce papers bro, it'll make your life a lot easier.

 

[2009ring]

My wife and I were both in our late 20's and freshly coming off of divorces (neither were finalized when we met.) We pretty much aired all our dirty laundry right out of the gate figuring screw it neither of us was in the mood to waste time. Once our divorces were finalized we dated for awhile then figured ah screw it why not. And here we are 20+ years later not with a storybook ending, but at least something we can be reasonably proud of. Doubt anyone is jealous of us but also we've made it this long so we must be doing some things right.

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

The guy was honest and he took his lumps. He should be okay with that. Doesn't sound like he's remotely ready to move on.

Yeah, If it's in the cards get those final divorce papers bro, it'll make your life a lot easier.

I was just looking at the text I sent him when he asked me for the 3rd date. I said "I've thought a lot about this over the past few days and you not being divorced makes this a situation I am unwilling to navigate together." He understood.

 

[2009ring]

I was just looking at the text I sent him when he asked me for the 3rd date. I said "I've thought a lot about this over the past few days and you not being divorced makes this a situation I am unwilling to navigate together." He understood.

As a guy who was in that situation a long time ago, that was well stated; in such a way the guy doesn't feel like a loser but you also make your boundaries clear.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

IAnd declining to continue to date a man is not automatically the same thing as denigrating him for having and showing emotions.

Other people have commented, but I think this is really important to highlight. Deciding not date someone is not the same thing as belittling, denigrating, degrading, etc someone. Especially after only 2 dates. That is very much in the getting to know you phase... and at the point, you can decide not to date anyone for any reason at all, superficial or otherwise. That is not some major pronouncement of that person's worth as an individual, it's just a "not clicking, moving on". It doesn't even matter if CCS is wrong or right about her perception of this guy's marriage -- it's been 2 dates, it didn't click, everyone should be grateful to find out now instead of a year down the line.

It really is tricky though with the idea of emotional vulnerability and what you should expect from someone... and the answer is always, it depends. A date should never be a therapist. But a partner should also be supportive and helpful. To be personal for a minute b/c that's what we're doing here... I'm nearing 50, and it has me feeling some certain kind of way. It might be manopause, mid-life crisis or whatever. And I have been way more irritable and grumpy over the last year. Like a lot of men, I'm not great at opening up emotionally, but I decided to do so with my wife, especially since she's the one that's had to put up with me even while she's dealing with other things. And it's really hard and does not come naturally to me at all, and a lot of that is fear... however, I did it, and as I logically expected (and had a right to expect as my wife of 25 years) she was wonderful and supportive and our marriage is better for it. However, if for whatever reason I was single, I don't think it would be all that egregious for someone I was just starting to date to hear that and think -- "nice guy, but he needs to figure some stuff out first". I think context, history, goals and so on all need to be taken into account.

 

[saintmdterps]

As a guy who was in that situation a long time ago, that was well stated; in such a way the guy doesn't feel like a loser but you also make your boundaries clear.

It's also a very logical choice. When a person is not yet divorced there are a multitude of strings still attaching them to the old relationship. Not wanting to wait while a person works his/her way through cutting those strings makes sense. Timing is everything. if it's in the cards it will come back around. In the meantime, there is drag racing to be done...

Ima go back to the days of eating tuna and rice, and drinking Natty Light while an Edelbrock Super Victor aluminum hi-rise intake with a Holley 670 Street Avenger sat on my dining room table. Jesus, I was soooo happy then. Life was uncomplicated. Dated when I wanted and raced when I wanted.

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

As a guy who was in that situation a long time ago, that was well stated; in such a way the guy doesn't feel like a loser but you also make your boundaries clear.

I have several friends both male and female that always seem to have drama when ending things with either relationships or FWB type situations. I never do and I think it's always because when I end things, I always treat people with dignity and respect. And any time another person has been crappy to me, I just block, cut contact and move on. I don't deal with all the back and forth and argue, I don't show up to people's houses or workplaces unannounced, etc. This has saved me from a lot of drama that others can't seem to escape.